Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
- Thread starter Nomadfl
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 160
George Wallace said:
My unit writes PERs for Cpls. My previous one did not.
- Reaction score
- 4,849
- Points
- 1,060
Crispy Bacon said:
However, they go no further than your Pers file. They are internal Unit documents. An exercise in administration.
Ludoc
Member
- Reaction score
- 37
- Points
- 430
I don't believe that is the case. The career manager certainly had access to mine and I don't see how the career shop would merit pers without being able to see their PERs(all jokes about them doing their job simply by throwing darts at a wall, aside).recceguy said:
Edit: Additionally, if Cpl PERs don't matter why is there even a spot for them in CFPAS? One would expect them to be absent from the program, as Ptes are.
- Reaction score
- 25
- Points
- 430
Ludoc said:
Because you need some means to merit your outstanding Cpls for promotion. The mediocre ones will not be merited. Once you reach Cpl, there are no more "automatic" promotions on "Time In and Quals".
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 430
sidemount said:
Opting out is a slippery slope in my mind, at any rank. You had better be producing, otherwise expect crap work, followed by crap postings, followed by potential career review.
It's not written anywhere, but read between to the lines. There is no way that persons will be able to slack off on purpose and still receive a handsome paycheck or good positions.
The opt out is best used by persons who are near the end of their career and have been told flat out they will not progress anymore. For Capts, it may be a CFR, or for younger Capts, it may be that the guys doesn't have a degree or a language profile. For Cpls, he may not want the added responsibility of subordinates.
That said, there are many career Cpls and Capts that do great work. As long as they are producing good work they should be allowed to continue service. For a person to do it early in their career seems like career suicide, or at least shitty times ahead, unless your CoC loves you as a work horse.
Opting out of the PER process is a new option, and one that should be approached carefully. This is an uncharted road, and the stakes are your career. Specifically, I'd be very hesitant about letting someone opt out who isn't on indefinite period of service -- since without a PER on file, how are terms of service boards going to look at their file?
And I've met several CFR'd Captains that were given 'the word' that they would never be more than Captains -- but were later merited with their peers and promoted to Major.
Honestly, I can't see any benefit to the member to opting out. There is already the option (very rarely used) for a member to refuse a promotion. If you don't want to advance -- isn't this sufficient?
And I've met several CFR'd Captains that were given 'the word' that they would never be more than Captains -- but were later merited with their peers and promoted to Major.
Honestly, I can't see any benefit to the member to opting out. There is already the option (very rarely used) for a member to refuse a promotion. If you don't want to advance -- isn't this sufficient?
- Reaction score
- 13,088
- Points
- 1,010
I opted out this year. I felt that, since I was within the 3 year window from retirement, there was really no point in either the RCAF or myself pretending I that have anything like a chance left of advancing.
OldSolduer
Army.ca Relic
- Reaction score
- 12,486
- Points
- 1,140
Ostrozac said:
We have said that in order to opt out, the member must notify the CO in writing as to the reasons. It is then the COs decision to allow the opt out.
It will probably be a few years before we see the full effect of the opt out option.
- Reaction score
- 13,088
- Points
- 1,010
I agree, Jim.
I would not recommend opting out to anyone not on IPS, unless they fully intend on releasing in a fairly short (less than 3 year) window.
You are also not (probably) going to be considered for any jammy OUTCAN postings. There are probably other consequences that have not yet been foreseen.
I would not recommend opting out to anyone not on IPS, unless they fully intend on releasing in a fairly short (less than 3 year) window.
You are also not (probably) going to be considered for any jammy OUTCAN postings. There are probably other consequences that have not yet been foreseen.
Eye In The Sky
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 3,780
- Points
- 1,160
No change to Cpls, but IIRC it was changed for 2Lt, Lt and perhaps Capt as well. I only have a copy of the draft CANFORGEN/email from CMP at home, but Para 3 states:
3. LT/SLT PER S. LT/SLT PER S ARE NO LONGER REQUIRED. A PERSONNEL
DEVELOPMENT REVIEW (PDR) SHALL BE PROVIDED TO EVERY LT/SLT NOT ON A
FORMAL TRAINING COURSE (WHO WOULD OTHERWISE RECEIVE A COURSE REPORT)
Para 4b states:
B. FOR CPL/LS TO MWO/CPO2 AND CAPT/LT(N) TO LCOL/CDR PER S, SECTION 5
(POTENTIAL) NARRATIVE IS ONLY REQUIRED FOR PER S WITH A PROMOTION
RECOMMENDATION CATEGORY OF IMMEDIATE OR NO (NO PROMOTION). PER S WITH
A PROMOTION RECOMMENDATION CATEGORY OF DEVELOPING OR READY SHALL NOT
HAVE A SECTION 5 NARRATIVE WRITTEN. SECTION 5 WILL STILL BE SCORED
AND, IF APPROPRIATE, RANKED. SECTION 6 (ADDITIONAL REVIEW) NARRATIVE
IS REQUIRED ONLY FOR THOSE PER S WITH IMMEDIATE PROMOTION
RECOMMENDATION, ONE OR MORE LOW PF S, AND/OR ONE OR MORE UNACCEPTABLE
AF S
and Para 5 states:
5. SELECTION BOARDS FROM CPL/LS TO MCPL/MS. THE RCN WILL ASSUME
RESPONSIBILITY FOR HOME PORT DIVISION SELECTION BOARDS FOR
APPOINTMENT FROM LS TO MS FOR SPECIFIC OCCUPATIONS. ADDITIONALLY, THE
CA WILL ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY OF SELECTION BOARDS FOR APPOINTMENT TO
MCPL FOR SPECIFIC OCCUPATIONS. THE INTENT IS FOR ANY NEW BOARD
FORMATS TO BE READY FOR IMPLEMENTATION IN AUTUMN 2014. ADDITIONAL
DETAILED INFORMATION WILL BE PROMULGATED. THE RCAF WILL CONTINUE TO
HOLD NATIONAL SELECTION BOARDS FOR ALL OCCUPATIONS
3. LT/SLT PER S. LT/SLT PER S ARE NO LONGER REQUIRED. A PERSONNEL
DEVELOPMENT REVIEW (PDR) SHALL BE PROVIDED TO EVERY LT/SLT NOT ON A
FORMAL TRAINING COURSE (WHO WOULD OTHERWISE RECEIVE A COURSE REPORT)
Para 4b states:
B. FOR CPL/LS TO MWO/CPO2 AND CAPT/LT(N) TO LCOL/CDR PER S, SECTION 5
(POTENTIAL) NARRATIVE IS ONLY REQUIRED FOR PER S WITH A PROMOTION
RECOMMENDATION CATEGORY OF IMMEDIATE OR NO (NO PROMOTION). PER S WITH
A PROMOTION RECOMMENDATION CATEGORY OF DEVELOPING OR READY SHALL NOT
HAVE A SECTION 5 NARRATIVE WRITTEN. SECTION 5 WILL STILL BE SCORED
AND, IF APPROPRIATE, RANKED. SECTION 6 (ADDITIONAL REVIEW) NARRATIVE
IS REQUIRED ONLY FOR THOSE PER S WITH IMMEDIATE PROMOTION
RECOMMENDATION, ONE OR MORE LOW PF S, AND/OR ONE OR MORE UNACCEPTABLE
AF S
and Para 5 states:
5. SELECTION BOARDS FROM CPL/LS TO MCPL/MS. THE RCN WILL ASSUME
RESPONSIBILITY FOR HOME PORT DIVISION SELECTION BOARDS FOR
APPOINTMENT FROM LS TO MS FOR SPECIFIC OCCUPATIONS. ADDITIONALLY, THE
CA WILL ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY OF SELECTION BOARDS FOR APPOINTMENT TO
MCPL FOR SPECIFIC OCCUPATIONS. THE INTENT IS FOR ANY NEW BOARD
FORMATS TO BE READY FOR IMPLEMENTATION IN AUTUMN 2014. ADDITIONAL
DETAILED INFORMATION WILL BE PROMULGATED. THE RCAF WILL CONTINUE TO
HOLD NATIONAL SELECTION BOARDS FOR ALL OCCUPATIONS
Good afternoon Everyone,
Status Update (No...I am not part of any social media site).....Since my last post, I did start the grievance process and all that, but after listening to what you all had to say here (based on your combined years of experience), and talking others senior to myself and the supervisor, I went away and substantiated the performance factors I had issues with factual examples that seem to have got lost along the way, and didn't get captured in the initial draft
Long story short....a compromise was reached that saw a couple of points moved back to the right to match my previous PER, and a couple left as is. Someone on here made a valid point when they said..."by the time I get to the promotion zone, this PER might be obsolete i.e. won't matter". The boat was already rocked, and my initial reason for going down this road is because I strongly felt that in light of the accolades my troop received this year for all the good work, and saw 98% of my MCpls ranked in the immediate, WO promoted etc....my PER didn't reflect this overrall team effort.
The primary concern for me has always been meeting our mandate & the well being of my staff, and am glad to see the moral at an all high since I took over. I inherited a jaded troop, and spent the first few months in the posn rectifying this, as well as having 3 different supervisors. I am putting this behind me and moving forward, hopefully I don't have to deal with this again in the future
I know what my long term goal is in the Military, and anything more than that will just be a bonus. Someone mentioned up thread that if I become a senior Captain, at least I can look forward to a decent pay....it's not all about the money, but am sure in the many years I still have to go in this second career.....the promotion will happen.
Again....Thanks everyone.
Oh....If anyone has a good template for a BRAG SHEET they are willing to share, pls send it my way so I can use it to start documenting my activities for the next FY
Status Update (No...I am not part of any social media site).....Since my last post, I did start the grievance process and all that, but after listening to what you all had to say here (based on your combined years of experience), and talking others senior to myself and the supervisor, I went away and substantiated the performance factors I had issues with factual examples that seem to have got lost along the way, and didn't get captured in the initial draft
Long story short....a compromise was reached that saw a couple of points moved back to the right to match my previous PER, and a couple left as is. Someone on here made a valid point when they said..."by the time I get to the promotion zone, this PER might be obsolete i.e. won't matter". The boat was already rocked, and my initial reason for going down this road is because I strongly felt that in light of the accolades my troop received this year for all the good work, and saw 98% of my MCpls ranked in the immediate, WO promoted etc....my PER didn't reflect this overrall team effort.
The primary concern for me has always been meeting our mandate & the well being of my staff, and am glad to see the moral at an all high since I took over. I inherited a jaded troop, and spent the first few months in the posn rectifying this, as well as having 3 different supervisors. I am putting this behind me and moving forward, hopefully I don't have to deal with this again in the future
I know what my long term goal is in the Military, and anything more than that will just be a bonus. Someone mentioned up thread that if I become a senior Captain, at least I can look forward to a decent pay....it's not all about the money, but am sure in the many years I still have to go in this second career.....the promotion will happen.
Again....Thanks everyone.
Oh....If anyone has a good template for a BRAG SHEET they are willing to share, pls send it my way so I can use it to start documenting my activities for the next FY
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
Disclaimer* - Individual situations may warrant different approaches. This guide serves as information only. *We do not help write or counsel on wordings for any Redress of Grievances or Ministerial Inquiries. We make no claims on legal validity of our opinions or how the content of this guide is used.*
Scenario:
Corporal Bloggins has an illness and is on a Temporary Category (TCAT). One of his symptom brought on an argument with his boss, which resulted in disciplinary action (Summary trial/Court Martial) as well as administrative Review (AR recommending C&P (counselling and probation or item 5 release (bad)) His partner and children are stressed and his livelihood is in danger. Member wants help, treatment and to be treated fairly.
Here are the steps in order on how Corporal Bloggins should proceed;
1. He should see his Doctor to produce a treatment plan. (A treatment plan commits the CF to something that will help him and affect a release decision) This should include mental health.
*If the member cannot get adequate help from the Military Health system, he is to proceed to the Emergency at the local hospital when his symptoms are bad in order to move from the military system to the civilian one. * (This is the only way at times to get treatment)
2. Opt for a Court Martial rather than a Summary trial. (Summary trials would not be fair to the member. To elect Court Martial buys time and will most likely not be preferred (recommended to proceed) by the Judge Advocate (JAG) based on complexity. JAG's like easy cases that show clear violations of Good order and discipline which are used to reinforce appropriate behaviour in the CF.
3. Produce a memorandum to his Chain of Command (Coc) explaining not his actions which resulted in the discipline but his medical and social issues. Ask for help from his Coc, on paper, laying it all out for them to get a feel for who they are aiming to "correct".
4. The AR comes back with a disclosure package. It's not a favourable release item. File representation within 14 days with all documents related to his illness treatment plan, (medical documents) Coc memorandum and any other factors. He will be asking to complete his treatment and for a medical release based on his illness.
5. File a Redress of Grievance as well with the same documents. Stating that the CF is being unholy unjust in how they are treating him. A medical illness brought on while serving is not grounds for termination without a medical release brought on by an adequate Administrative Review of his Medical Employment Limitations. (AR/MEL) He wishes that the system not discriminate against him in allowing his condition not to be treated, hindering his livelihood now and for the future.
*(The Grievance process is long and won't do anything in his situation but it is a step and allows the member to gather his thoughts into a package he will use later on)*
6. Seek a Case Manager and see our article https://army.ca/forums/threads/117157/post-1340772.html#msg1340772 - He will seek to be complex. He will ask for a copy of his assessment.
7. Go on sick leave if possible. No reasons to augment stress at work with his Coc. Adds to the potential of a medical release by bolstering his current condition.
8. Release item comes back. Not favourable. 6 months to release date. Court Martial decision still pending. His grievance is a non issue.
9. The member can see the Padre, Case Manager, Doctor but it won't be of much use. The cards have been dealt from Ottawa.
10. The member mentions to his spouse/mother/father that they should write a detailed email to the Minister of National Defence explaining the atrocities of how the military is treating her/their spouse/son. Clearly stating that it is affecting her/them and that it needs to stop. Provide an easy solution like: Let him stay until the treatment is done, send him out medically..stop discriminating against him.
*The member cannot sent this email. It has to be a civilian. Write enough to identify Cpl Bloggins but its an email from a concerned citizen and not from a military member which falls under the Code of Service Discipline (CSD). *
*This option is called a Ministerial Inquiry and is sent to the Minister of National Defence. The Minister has a secretary who sends the email to the CF unit who will respond on behalf of the MND. The CF has a few days to do so and so the clock makes a Chain of Command jump. The MND will not look like a fool in Question Period and as such, the CF will write a response adequate to the MND's public image. (Cpl Bloggins wife will have her husband's release decision overturned as to not have Cpl Bloggins wife bring this situation to the media thus having the MND answer a hard question on why he decided to release a member with a critical illness without any medical converge and before his treatment was done or even started. A member that clearly had issues that he let his Coc know with a memo, that he sought help and grieved the decision on many occasions*
*This Ministerial Inquiry is a last resort solution and should not be used unless every other option has been tried and tested.*
11. The member decided not to proceed with the Ministerial Inquiry, instead, he scanned and sent all of his documents to the Chief of the Canadian Forces. He explained his situation and begged for him/her to intervene on his behalf.
*The CF CWO can and would have no issues walking down to any release authority and asking questions if he/she deemed a situation contrary to his/her sound judgment. Especially since it's part of the job to care for his/her NCM's.*
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Your situation can be different and you may use this guide to entertain idea's on how to proceeds in your own way. If you do have any questions, we have our number and email on our website.
"We are not alone in our struggles."
"We stand strong together"
Scenario:
Corporal Bloggins has an illness and is on a Temporary Category (TCAT). One of his symptom brought on an argument with his boss, which resulted in disciplinary action (Summary trial/Court Martial) as well as administrative Review (AR recommending C&P (counselling and probation or item 5 release (bad)) His partner and children are stressed and his livelihood is in danger. Member wants help, treatment and to be treated fairly.
Here are the steps in order on how Corporal Bloggins should proceed;
1. He should see his Doctor to produce a treatment plan. (A treatment plan commits the CF to something that will help him and affect a release decision) This should include mental health.
*If the member cannot get adequate help from the Military Health system, he is to proceed to the Emergency at the local hospital when his symptoms are bad in order to move from the military system to the civilian one. * (This is the only way at times to get treatment)
2. Opt for a Court Martial rather than a Summary trial. (Summary trials would not be fair to the member. To elect Court Martial buys time and will most likely not be preferred (recommended to proceed) by the Judge Advocate (JAG) based on complexity. JAG's like easy cases that show clear violations of Good order and discipline which are used to reinforce appropriate behaviour in the CF.
3. Produce a memorandum to his Chain of Command (Coc) explaining not his actions which resulted in the discipline but his medical and social issues. Ask for help from his Coc, on paper, laying it all out for them to get a feel for who they are aiming to "correct".
4. The AR comes back with a disclosure package. It's not a favourable release item. File representation within 14 days with all documents related to his illness treatment plan, (medical documents) Coc memorandum and any other factors. He will be asking to complete his treatment and for a medical release based on his illness.
5. File a Redress of Grievance as well with the same documents. Stating that the CF is being unholy unjust in how they are treating him. A medical illness brought on while serving is not grounds for termination without a medical release brought on by an adequate Administrative Review of his Medical Employment Limitations. (AR/MEL) He wishes that the system not discriminate against him in allowing his condition not to be treated, hindering his livelihood now and for the future.
*(The Grievance process is long and won't do anything in his situation but it is a step and allows the member to gather his thoughts into a package he will use later on)*
6. Seek a Case Manager and see our article https://army.ca/forums/threads/117157/post-1340772.html#msg1340772 - He will seek to be complex. He will ask for a copy of his assessment.
7. Go on sick leave if possible. No reasons to augment stress at work with his Coc. Adds to the potential of a medical release by bolstering his current condition.
8. Release item comes back. Not favourable. 6 months to release date. Court Martial decision still pending. His grievance is a non issue.
9. The member can see the Padre, Case Manager, Doctor but it won't be of much use. The cards have been dealt from Ottawa.
10. The member mentions to his spouse/mother/father that they should write a detailed email to the Minister of National Defence explaining the atrocities of how the military is treating her/their spouse/son. Clearly stating that it is affecting her/them and that it needs to stop. Provide an easy solution like: Let him stay until the treatment is done, send him out medically..stop discriminating against him.
*The member cannot sent this email. It has to be a civilian. Write enough to identify Cpl Bloggins but its an email from a concerned citizen and not from a military member which falls under the Code of Service Discipline (CSD). *
*This option is called a Ministerial Inquiry and is sent to the Minister of National Defence. The Minister has a secretary who sends the email to the CF unit who will respond on behalf of the MND. The CF has a few days to do so and so the clock makes a Chain of Command jump. The MND will not look like a fool in Question Period and as such, the CF will write a response adequate to the MND's public image. (Cpl Bloggins wife will have her husband's release decision overturned as to not have Cpl Bloggins wife bring this situation to the media thus having the MND answer a hard question on why he decided to release a member with a critical illness without any medical converge and before his treatment was done or even started. A member that clearly had issues that he let his Coc know with a memo, that he sought help and grieved the decision on many occasions*
*This Ministerial Inquiry is a last resort solution and should not be used unless every other option has been tried and tested.*
11. The member decided not to proceed with the Ministerial Inquiry, instead, he scanned and sent all of his documents to the Chief of the Canadian Forces. He explained his situation and begged for him/her to intervene on his behalf.
*The CF CWO can and would have no issues walking down to any release authority and asking questions if he/she deemed a situation contrary to his/her sound judgment. Especially since it's part of the job to care for his/her NCM's.*
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Your situation can be different and you may use this guide to entertain idea's on how to proceeds in your own way. If you do have any questions, we have our number and email on our website.
"We are not alone in our struggles."
"We stand strong together"
Eye In The Sky
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 3,780
- Points
- 1,160
Wtf is that post? A guide of how to play the system after being insubordinate?
That post is full of issues and inaccuracies that have the potential to cause damage to serving members. Wtf. Shake your head you idiot.
That post is full of issues and inaccuracies that have the potential to cause damage to serving members. Wtf. Shake your head you idiot.
- Reaction score
- 3,426
- Points
- 1,160
Really interesting, considering my unit just got a brief from the folks that run Road to Mental Readiness, and they stated that PTSD is not an excuse for a member to not follow proper military protocol/military bearing. It does them a disservice to encourage insubordinate behavior, and slows their recovery.
