References Superthread [Merged]

[Tracker]

I missed the VFS.  If you require a VFS, we have send a request to find your previous service records and your medical docs.  I have no idea where these are kept, but know we don't have them at the recruiting centre.  I alway imagine a troll in a basement warehouse pushing a wheelbarrow of paper around.  A way to get around VFS is to get yourself on the sup list during release proceedings.

Thanks for fixing my posts.

 

[Infanteer]

Thanks for laying that out Tracker, it makes it clear that there are elements of the recruiting process that are out of the hands of the guys on the "tip of the recruiting spear".  Obviously you or I will not be reforming the system from down here, as usual some brass in Ottawa is sitting on the solution.

I think we agree for the most part on what needs to be done at the recruiting stage.  Naturally, being a professional volunteer service, we are not looking for mass inductions a la WWII, so we have to be somewhat critical.

Interest:  The recruiters must get the interest out and the potential recruits through the door.  More effective advertising could be put out (seriously, who makes up those ads? ) but that is beyond this discussion; we want to address what happens when a willing volunteer comes through the door.

VFS:  Yes, important.  Did we chuck the guy out for poor conduct?  Obviously, this is a paperwork thing, though someone should be barking in Ottawa to ensure it takes no longer then it should.

CFAT: Also important, we don't want complete idiots occuping the role of the "strategic corporal".  Isn't three months a bit long?  I think we should take into account that some of these kids are real nervous when they write the test.

Fitness Test: I am not too worried about this.  Medical problems should be addressed in the medical.  Good Officers and NCO's in our training establishments should be able to mold a good soldier from weak clay (we just got to give them the proper time and resources).  Also, I remember having a two week roadblock during my recruiting process in having to make a physical fitness assessment at some other place and wait for them to tabulate my 19 pushups and situps and deliver them to CFRC.  Pretty inefficent if you ask me.

Criminal Record Check and Reliability Check:  Both also important, we don't want convicted drug pushers in the Forces and we also don't want someone who has spent the last five years in a training camp in Pakistan to slip through the system.  You say it takes a week to do this, so why wait to book the Med and the Interview?  The potential recruit isn't going anywhere, and I've always been taught that concurrent activity is good.

Medical:  Important, very important.  Easy as well.  Filled quite a few of them out, like you said, during tour.  Can be done quite quickly (1,1,1,1,4,6 - Not much else to it), and I can understand delays for people with questionable medical conditons.

Interview:  I can understand a recruiter "feeling out" the potential recruit to make sure he isn't joining the Army "to shoot people" or to simply squeak by with a government check with minimal effort (green welfare).  As with the original arguement, I question the necessity of reference letters due to their relevence.  Serious problems with the persons past should be picked up on the criminal record check and the reliability check, other than that, shouldn't the interview just ensure that the potential recruit understands what they are signing up to?

Job Offers: This would be out of the CFRC's hands obviously, dependant on vacancies and spaces in the training establishments, which is another story altogether.

These are all reasonable policies, and I don't argue with abandoning them to expedite the recruiting process.  All I am saying is that the system seems pretty inefficent to be taking such a long time to accomplish reletivly simple objectives (that other militaries can accomplish in 4-6 weeks).  When I applied, I had no bumps in my recruiting process (I went throughe everything quite quickly) and yet I was still sitting around waiting for the next step.  From office door to being sworn in, it took 16 weeks (4 months) to get through.  That time seems to be fairly standard for recruits without any major problems.

If you think 3-6 months is acceptable, than I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree.

On another topic, what would be the explanation for the run arounds such as this:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/17228.0

See these stories quite frequently here, and I am curious to know if problems like these can be attributed to manpower issues (not enough recruiters to handle the influx of interested kids) or are people asleep at the wheel?

 

[Noyon]

I remember awhile back now when I was sitting in the recruitment office and someone had the exact same problem, his Father was in the CF so they were often moving around. The longest he had lived somewhere was 4 years at Barrie while his dad was at Borden, he didn't know anyone that was not family so the recruitment officer said he'd probably have to somehow  find the referances otherwise it's unlikely you'll be considered. However the recruitment officer did attach a letter to his file explaining his situation, I don't know what happened after that.

 

[Tracker]

I think in our area we cover the interest thing pretty good.  We go to each of the 300+ highschools twice a year, in the fall to pitch ROTP and once in the spring to pitch NCM.  We go to every University and College as often as they will let us in to speak to specific classes and all the job fairs.  We also go to employment centres and do misc community events.

The reason that we do Physical fitness tests at the CFRC instead of letting the training system worry about it is this, if someone can't pass the entrance test they are more likely to become a casualty on basic training, this will either mean longer recovery time or med release and pension, a pt test only costs us $27.00 at the CFRC.  If you look at the time allocation at basic, you will see that there is probably not enough time to mold that piece of week clay.

As for the run around, all I can say is that every recruiting centre is run differently. That is why the process I outlined for someone in the GTA might not be the same for someone applying in Victoria.  We have to adapt our process for the area we recruit in and not everyone will like it.  We constantly try to improve the system and stay within our boundaries.  If I was the guy getting the runaround I would speak with my member of Parliament to launch an inquiry.  Plain and simple, try to put an end to it before someone else gets screwed.

 

[Infanteer]

The reason that we do Physical fitness tests at the CFRC instead of letting the training system worry about it is this, if someone can't pass the entrance test they are more likely to become a casualty on basic training, this will either mean longer recovery time or med release and pension, a pt test only costs us $27.00 at the CFRC.

So if someone can't complete 15 pushups, they are a liability, but if someone can squeak 20 off, they're worth the risk?   I know we have to draw the line somewhere, I'm just not sure if it is effective where we are doing it.   Maybe I am just drawing an issue with the standards here, the US has the APFT and the Royal Marines have the 3 day PMC, so the logic is applied in other places.

If you look at the time allocation at basic, you will see that there is probably not enough time to mold that piece of week clay.

I'm sure we both think that is a problem that needs to be fixed, however, it is above our discussion and our paygrade....

As for the run around, all I can say is that every recruiting centre is run differently. That is why the process I outlined for someone in the GTA might not be the same for someone applying in Victoria.   We have to adapt our process for the area we recruit in and not everyone will like it.   We constantly try to improve the system and stay within our boundaries.   If I was the guy getting the runaround I would speak with my member of Parliament to launch an inquiry.   Plain and simple, try to put an end to it before someone else gets screwed.

Yep, I think the real way to solve this is to be demanding of who we send to CFRC and their performance, not just put out an APB for a clerk who was run out of their own BOR (seen it done before).

In the United States Marine Corps, a successful stint at a recruiting or training establishment is seen as an essential stepping stone for advancement for NCO's and junior officers; there can be competition for the positions and the best qualified usually get the job.   Although far from being able to do this in the CF right now (we are stretched to the limits everywhere outside of NDHQ.), do you think this would be a good policy to look towards?

 

[Tracker]

When recruiting becomes important, important people will be doing the recruiting. :sniper:

 

[SFontaine]

When I get my Green Card I'll be sure to let you guys know how long the recruiting takes. From the moment I receive my card in the mail to the second I step inside Fort Benning, Georgia.

 

[ZipperHead]

I don't know if you want to be using the current state of the US military as a benchmark for how fast and/or effective their recruiting system is. I have seen the fact the the word "draft" bandied about on a few news sites. I doubt it will happen, but I suspect that they are expediting people's applications to fill trenches.

Al

 

[SFontaine]

With respect, the US has always had a damn speedy system. This guy I know who had dual-citizenship joined back in 99 and he said it took him exactly 4 weeks from phoning a recruiter to being flown down to the US and sent off for basic. Besides, the focus of the US recruitment program has always been recruitment.. They weed people at out Basic.

 

[ZipperHead]

I should know better than to rely on Army Urban Legends, but I have heard many a tale about how there are "gangs" on bases in the US and that officers on ships won't go below decks without an armed escort. I think that some of those types of problems could have been weeded out in the application process.

I don't know if there is a perfect system, but I think that people need to be a bit more patient. If the military is something that you really want, you have to put up with the bureaucracy that comes with it. This isn't McDonald's, and if you're ready to pack it in after a short wait, so be it. We could do without people who quit because the going gets tough.

Al

 

[Pugnacious]

I can certanly see how the current "war" the US is having might speed things up, but at the same time just how well will you be trained? 
And most importantly just who is in the trench with you?  Some of those US hazing rituals are down right insane. 

I'm also just not a fan of US policy and Ideology.

So In spite of a few events over the years, I have heard nothing but praise about our forces, and for me this is my home..my country.
I want to hang out with people like me that are proud to do their jobs.

So I haven't given up my quest yet for my refrences, and last night my wife reminded me of a few people I had forgotton about the past few months that could fit the bill as reffrences.  We shall see...besides which I seldom walk away from challenges.  ;D

Sorry to prattle on.
Cheers!
P.

 

[ZipperHead]

Pug, my comments weren't directed at you. I have read more than a few posts in the Recruiting forum where people whinged about the recruiting process. I think a lot of it is the "instant gratification" that people want, where 1 hr photomats are too slow, and the 3 minutes that it takes to nuke something in the microwave is too slow.

There are some people that have been dicked around by the recruiting process, but I suspect that sometimes that it is self-inflicted, such as leaving out info on the reference forms, or being vague with respect to employment history or where you lived. Things take time, and people don't work 24/7 on these things.

Al

 

[SFontaine]

I didn't mind waiting the 5-6 months I did because I was confident in thinking I would get summer training.I finished my testing late May and finished my app last week and if CFRC had done their job I'd be on course right this instant. Unfortunantly they didn't because too many people were taking vacations. THAT'S what bugs me about CFRC.

Oh and the whole gang thing. Where'd you hear that?

 

[ZipperHead]

Again, the "gang" situation in the US Army is probably more urban legend than truth, and probably rooted more in racism than fact. One time when we went to Ft Knox to use the SimNet (tank and Bradley simulators), we went to the all-ranks club on base. Greeting you was a sign that said (basically): "No guns, no knives, etc". The club is/was broken down into a country bar (rednecks), a rock and roll bar (baseball hat and t-shirt wearing white guys) and a R&B bar (blacks). We (all white guys) walked into the R&B bar, and it was just like in "Animal House". I think the music even stopped as everybody stopped to look at us. We sat down and started talking to a few people, and they asked what we were doing there. I think that they thought we were being smart-asses and wanted trouble. We said that we were from Canada, and that seemed to make everything OK, and we had a good time. But I got the feeling that most times that people stuck to their "own kind". I have also heard talk (from Sr NCO's from my past) that there were drive-by shootings on some of the big bases, like Ft Hood. On the base. Now, you can decide for yourself, or look it up to see if it's true, but there is always a grain of truth in stories like this. After all, militaries usually recruit from the underpriviledged of society, because what guy in his right mind with a bright future would join the military  . And already having advanced weapons handling looks good on your application, right?!?!

Anyway, as I said before, more than likely a stretch of the real truth, and you shouldn't always believe anything you read on the internet without double-checking (I'm with a Nigerian bank, and if you send me $20000, we can turn it into 2 million bucks......).

Al

 

[Pugnacious]

Quite a Culture shock to goto the US and still see so much segragation isn't it?

Cheers!
P.

 

[SFontaine]

I see the exact same segregation here at school.. East Indian guys sit around acting black, Asian guys sit around playing computer/talking about cars and white guys sit around skating or whatever.

 

[jarko]

Is it ok to have 2 friends as references or will the people that look at your application skip you and go with the person with better refernces??

 

[Inch]

Try to get the most prestigious people you can find. Preferably employers or something of the like. When I applied to the Reg force I had my Res CO, and my program head in College. I think there was a third but I don't remember. I don't know if it'd be a detriment to have your friends as references, but I'd be asking why you only had friends and couldn't get a boss or principal or even a teacher for that matter.

Cheers

 

[jarko]

Ahh well i am in luck, my boss returned from his vacation and will fill the form in  ;D. Ill have one friend and an employer. Hopefully thats good enough!! Hopefully i can hand in my application tomorrow and start my long waiting.

 

[koach]

Having your friends as references is fine.  It could be difficult, lets say, for someone who is currently in highschool to have references other than their friends.