Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[brihard]

Yes, it's interesting that some people can spend their entire career and never run into it.  But for others it becomes a real problem.  It depends on your CO's feelings and how it plays out.

In 2006 I watched absolutely aghast as the CO of the Ceremonial Guard in Ottawa threw several soldiers off parade in the Cartier Square Drill Hall because they did not wish to pray with him.  He stood with his arm extended toward the door as they were required to walk away from their unit, their Colours and their fellow soldiers simply because, as Canadians, they did not wish to take part in a government-imposed worship service.

Not only were they thrown off parade, they were thrown right out of the building.

I find this appalling.

I was rank and file at CG in summer 2006. When did this take place? I never heard of this. I'm wracking my brain trying to remember who the CO at the time was.

 

[mariomike]

People are still doing church parades?

Don't know if they still are, but we used to parade here,
https://pccweb.ca/standrews-hillsburgh/

 

[lenaitch]

I'm not from a military background and it strikes me that being pressed-ganged into participating in a religious event is anachronistic.  If the issue is overt or subliminal coercion, particularly in a rank-based organization, then I agree.

However, the concept of 'if it doesn't speak to me then it offends me' as being rather curious.  Does having colours laid up in a religious place really offend anyone?  If a faith leader makes a religious invocated over said colours, even if those words mean absolutely nothing to me, how am I negatively impacted by simply standing/sitting there observing it? 

I'm not a religious person but have attended numerous personal funerals, police funerals, memorials, a Red Mass and other events where religious invocation has taken place, and simply stand by quietly in respect of whatever is taking place.  I suppose in all cases I could have chosen not to attend, but that strikes me as a tad selfish and disrespectful of the friend/colleague/entity that I wished to acknowledge, remember or celebrate. 

Another curiosity these days, at least in public service, is if someone suggested a prayer or other religious invocation at an event, they would be pilloried, but if they suggested an aboriginal smudge ceremony, they would be applauded.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I'm not from a military background and it strikes me that being pressed-ganged into participating in a religious event is anachronistic.  If the issue is overt or subliminal coercion, particularly in a rank-based organization, then I agree.

However, the concept of 'if it doesn't speak to me then it offends me' as being rather curious.  Does having colours laid up in a religious place really offend anyone?  If a faith leader makes a religious invocated over said colours, even if those words mean absolutely nothing to me, how am I negatively impacted by simply standing/sitting there observing it? 

I'm not a religious person but have attended numerous personal funerals, police funerals, memorials, a Red Mass and other events where religious invocation has taken place, and simply stand by quietly in respect of whatever is taking place.  I suppose in all cases I could have chosen not to attend, but that strikes me as a tad selfish and disrespectful of the friend/colleague/entity that I wished to acknowledge, remember or celebrate. 

Another curiosity these days, at least in public service, is if someone suggested a prayer or other religious invocation at an event, they would be pilloried, but if they suggested an aboriginal smudge ceremony, they would be applauded.

:goodpost: Exactly this. Not hard to take off your hat and shut your festering gob for five minutes.

 

[SupersonicMax]

:goodpost: Exactly this. Not hard to take off your hat and shut your festering gob for five minutes.

Just like it is easy for the CAF to make their ceremonies secular.

As an institution, the CAF should not (and can not) favour a religion over another.  It is one thing to voluntarily go to a religious ceremony; it is an entirely other thing to be forced into it. 

 

[dapaterson]

Just like it is easy for the CAF to make their ceremonies secular.

As an institution, the CAF should not (and can not) favour a religion over another.  It is one thing to voluntarily go to a religious ceremony; it is an entirely other thing to be forced into it.

In 2004, that issue went before the Court Martial Appeal Court, where a Lt(N) who forewarned his chain of command that he did not believe in God and should not be put out on a church parade, refused to obey the order "Remove Headdress" in advance of a prayer.  While the military judge found him guilty, the competent CMAC noted "the judge's finding was unreasonable and is not supportable on the whole of the evidence".  Further, "there was no clearly military purpose, but simply the impermissible one of having the entire parade show some level of participation in and assent to the prayers that followed. The order was not lawful and the appellant's disobedience of it was justified."

https://decisions.cmac-cacm.ca/cmac-cacm/cmac-cacm/en/item/7837/index.do?

 

[PuckChaser]

People are still doing church parades? Really?

From Tony's examples, it seems more of a PRes issue where those units are directly tied historically to a specific church or denomination. The heritage link is completely understandable, but those current COs and RSMs really need to understand the new demographics of Canadian society aren't majority Christian as they were in 1944, which is completely OK.

Every "prayer" I've been witnessed to from a CAF Padre in the Regular Force has started with "Please take a moment to reflect with whatever your personal faith allows" (I'm paraphrasing) and avoids overt references to God which would link more directly to Christianity than the myriad of other faiths that are welcome in the CAF today.

At the end of the day, the only Church parades I've ever been "forced" to attend were funerals, and would have felt the same amount of personal drive to attend should they have been in a Synagogue, Mosque, Gurdawa or any other religious place of worship to honour that fallen member.

 

[FJAG]

I'm not from a military background and it strikes me that being pressed-ganged into participating in a religious event is anachronistic.  If the issue is overt or subliminal coercion, particularly in a rank-based organization, then I agree.

However, the concept of 'if it doesn't speak to me then it offends me' as being rather curious.  Does having colours laid up in a religious place really offend anyone?  If a faith leader makes a religious invocated over said colours, even if those words mean absolutely nothing to me, how am I negatively impacted by simply standing/sitting there observing it? 

I'm not a religious person but have attended numerous personal funerals, police funerals, memorials, a Red Mass and other events where religious invocation has taken place, and simply stand by quietly in respect of whatever is taking place.  I suppose in all cases I could have chosen not to attend, but that strikes me as a tad selfish and disrespectful of the friend/colleague/entity that I wished to acknowledge, remember or celebrate. 

Another curiosity these days, at least in public service, is if someone suggested a prayer or other religious invocation at an event, they would be pilloried, but if they suggested an aboriginal smudge ceremony, they would be applauded.

There is a point that stops well of "this offends me".

Like you, I have stood silently at hundreds of ceremonies when a religious component takes place. I've never been offended by other people's religiosity. In fact I think at most of those ceremonies the majority took no part in the prayer but like myself stood there silently. I doubt that we stood there out of respect for that religion but instead we did so because it was expected of us.

While I'm not offended by religious ceremonies at public functions, I do ask myself--pretty much every time--"why are we doing this? What purpose does it serve?" It's not like a national anthem or a pledge of allegiance to the country or Queen. It's only a nod to one particular religious sect and done mostly as a matter of rote.

I won't argue the prayer v smudging issue although my understanding is that smudging per se can be cultural without being spiritual in the same way that burning incense does not necessarily indicate a spiritual element. That said, I agree with you that when smudging is used as a part of a spiritual ceremony there is no difference from holding a prayer but while there may be a small minority (the easily outraged amongst us) that pillory one while applauding the other, I think the vast majority of Canadians do neither; we simply stand by silently letting it happen.

In 2004, that issue went before the Court Martial Appeal Court, where a Lt(N) who forewarned his chain of command that he did not believe in God and should not be put out on a church parade, refused to obey the order "Remove Headdress" in advance of a prayer.  While the military judge found him guilty, the competent CMAC noted "the judge's finding was unreasonable and is not supportable on the whole of the evidence".  Further, "there was no clearly military purpose, but simply the impermissible one of having the entire parade show some level of participation in and assent to the prayers that followed. The order was not lawful and the appellant's disobedience of it was justified."

https://decisions.cmac-cacm.ca/cmac-cacm/cmac-cacm/en/item/7837/index.do?

I find myself somewhat embarrassed in that in 2004 I was still serving with the JAG and the appellant's counsel, Denis Couture, was well known to me but I have absolutely no recollection of ever having heard of this decision. I find it disturbing that it did not get wider notice. IMHO, it is absolutely bang on target.

:cheers:

 

[Ostrozac]

From Tony's examples, it seems more of a PRes issue where those units are directly tied historically to a specific church or denomination. The heritage link is completely understandable, but those current COs and RSMs really need to understand the new demographics of Canadian society aren't majority Christian as they were in 1944, which is completely OK.

But aren’t we Regulars, by reputation cosseted in our isolated small town garrisons, supposed to rely heavily on the Reserves for connecting with Canadians? Don’t these PRes COs and RSMs realize that Canadian culture is now quite heavily secular? There was this whole thing called the Quiet Revolution, and then also some other stuff.

In an RCR battalion if the CO wanted to work on Sunday we’d go to the field or have a Freedom of the City parade. But never a church parade.

 

[Remius]

From Tony's examples, it seems more of a PRes issue where those units are directly tied historically to a specific church or denomination. The heritage link is completely understandable, but those current COs and RSMs really need to understand the new demographics of Canadian society aren't majority Christian as they were in 1944, which is completely OK.

It isn’t just PRES units that have direct heritage and historical link to a specific church or denomination.  I would argue that it is more part of the Regimental system than PRES vs REG.  All Regiments seem to have historical or heritage links to some church or another.  Either Protestant or Catholic. 

I have never seen anyone forced to go to a church parade.  Or to do anything they didn’t want to other than show signs of respect, like taking your hat off or respecting a moment of silence.

  And while Canadian society does not have the same Christian majority that it did in 1944 it still is majority Christian.  It is shrinking though absolutely.  But remember that the CAF, in particular those parts that are Regimental are nowhere near reflective of the current Canadian society make up. 

And perhaps that is why vestiges of a religious time gone by still remain. 

Jr ranks xmas dinners, heavily laden with western christian traditions still occur and xmas concerts are still performed by all CAF bands.  And while it may seem as being non denominational they are all linked to one particular faith at one particular time of year. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

I find rememberance day ceremonies feel like 70% or 80% prayers and reading from the Bible. A few times I've walked away thinking to myself that "the troops" hardly got mentioned at all.

 

[Remius]

I find rememberance day ceremonies feel like 70% or 80% prayers and reading from the Bible. A few times I've walked away thinking to myself that "the troops" hardly got mentioned at all.

I don’t find the national one to be that way at all.  Although they have religious representatives reading or speaking most link it to the fallen.  Not too much bible reading. 

Maybe it is just the more local ones?

 

[Jarnhamar]

I don’t find the national one to be that way at all.  Although they have religious representatives reading or speaking most link it to the fallen.  Not too much bible reading. 

Maybe it is just the more local ones?

That makes sense.

 

[mariomike]

I'm not from a military background and it strikes me that being pressed-ganged into participating in a religious event is anachronistic.  If the issue is overt or subliminal coercion, particularly in a rank-based organization, then I agree.

Only resentment I recall about church parade was the preparation of uniforms and vehicles required.   

Our departmental chaplain doesn't push religion, but offers spiritual support. He shows up, at least. That's the main thing, in my opinion.

At our pensioner luncheons ( temporarily suspended during the pandemic ), the chaplain always gives a prayer before the meal is served.

 

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=mariomike]
At our pensioner luncheons ( temporarily suspended during the pandemic ), the chaplain always gives a prayer before the meal is served.


[/quote]

They should bless the ambulances before leaving for the day and after coming back every shift.

 

[mariomike]

They should bless the ambulances before leaving for the day and after coming back every shift.

No. The prayer is for friends no longer with us, and those facing serious health problems. That may be difficult for some to appreciate.

 

[Jarnhamar]

No. The prayer is for friends no longer with us, and those facing serious health problems. That may be difficult for some to appreciate.

People in the back of ambulances face serious health problems.

 

[mariomike]

People in the back of ambulances face serious health problems.

Do you have a point to make, or just trolling?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Do you have a point to make

Of course.

the chaplain always gives a prayer before the meal is served.

That's passively pushing religion on someone just like blessing ambulances. More so I'd say.

 

[mariomike]

That's passively pushing religion on someone

It's pensioners. I've known some for almost half a century. Never heard anyone complain, until now.