• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition

Jarnhamar

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
1,124
Points
1,060
London Police Chief on holding back releasing information to protect the investigation. Item 5 in the story reflects how much we are affected by US laws and media.

(I'm clearly biased against Trudeau and the LPC so it's undoubtedly colouring my views)

I'm curious about this.
The police had enough evidence to release this attack was planned, premeditated and motivated by hate within the first 24 hours.
Within 48 hours the prime minister was calling it an act of terrorism and promising to redouble efforts against online and offline hate. (did he promise new initiatives or something?)

With such a clear cut case of a hate-motivated attack and terrorism, the police are worried about protecting the investigation now? It seems like the jury is already out.

For arguments sake say this guy had mental health illness and "just" a murderer and not a terrorist who stalked this family and singled them out murderer.
Is the whole hate-crime terrorism thing going to be easy to walk back? How would the PM prematurely calling this terrorism impact his trial? Would there be pressure to make the charges fit? We know what happened with JWR and the PM trying to make the rules fit his beliefs with SNC.

 

mariomike

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
330
Points
1,130

OldSolduer

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
1,428
Points
910
If the ‘far left’ is out in numbers, (which in our context is generally gonna be what could loosely be described as people who identify with antifa, black bloc, etc, I’ll worry that some windows are gonna get smashed and I might be getting some piss bottles thrown at me.
IMO Truly far left TRUE BELIEVERS don't smash windows, riot etc. They sew the seeds and let the blooming idiots who are "down for this, stick it to the man" do their dirty work for them.
 

lenaitch

Sr. Member
Reaction score
342
Points
810
(I'm clearly biased against Trudeau and the LPC so it's undoubtedly colouring my views)

I'm curious about this.
The police had enough evidence to release this attack was planned, premeditated and motivated by hate within the first 24 hours.
Within 48 hours the prime minister was calling it an act of terrorism and promising to redouble efforts against online and offline hate. (did he promise new initiatives or something?)

With such a clear cut case of a hate-motivated attack and terrorism, the police are worried about protecting the investigation now? It seems like the jury is already out.

For arguments sake say this guy had mental health illness and "just" a murderer and not a terrorist who stalked this family and singled them out murderer.
Is the whole hate-crime terrorism thing going to be easy to walk back? How would the PM prematurely calling this terrorism impact his trial? Would there be pressure to make the charges fit? We know what happened with JWR and the PM trying to make the rules fit his beliefs with SNC.


Lots of things are said in the media and public forum. What puts the puck in the net in court is the evidence tendered under oath. The police apparently have reasonable grounds to believe (a) that homicide was committed and (b) that it was motivated by hate. Other than 'inciting hatred' ('hate speech'), the hate motivation will only come into play when the court, hopefully, considers sentencing; although with an automatic life sentence, the only real impact would be consecutive sentences if that remains open, and possibly future parole hearings. There's really nothing to walk back - the court either buys it or not.

As Brihard mentions, some information the police may have or will have might not be admissible.

Have the police said this was an act of terrorism? I don't know, I haven't parsed all of the media. They have said they were investigating it, which is fair ball. One problem is many people, including sometimes the police, conflate the two terms.

Politicians say all sorts of stuff all the time. If erroneous information goes out, best that it not come from the folks who are in possession of the actual evidence and responsible for presenting it to the court in an untainted manner.

Was their political pressure? I highly doubt it; charges were laid the next day I believe, and no homicide investigator that I know would willing carry a case into court they didn't think they could win, and accomplished major crime investigators protect their evidence like their child, and the investigation is not truly complete until the gavel comes down (knowing that we don't use gavels in Canada).

Will public pronouncements and the notoriety impact on the trial? If it goes to jury, it will impact jury selection, but this is nothing new. It's all become part of the evolving 'open criminal justice system'.
 

QV

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
222
Points
680
I know the admins have a room to hash this stuff out. I also know we have a ‘Muslim’ edition of this thread too; I think a couple of the past few pages can probably be moved or split.

Aaaanyway, lots of interesting discussion. I guess from my perspective I’d be interested to know if we’re concerned about writing history or writing Ops plans.

On the occasions where my employer feels it necessary to yank me from behind my desk to throw me out on the road and pretending I’m a real cop again, there are a few things I worry a bit more or a bit less about.

If the ‘far left’ is out in numbers, (which in our context is generally gonna be what could loosely be described as people who identify with antifa, black bloc, etc, I’ll worry that some windows are gonna get smashed and I might be getting some piss bottles thrown at me.

If my fear is a vehicle trying to become one with a crowd, or an active shooter, trends in radical violence suggest the greatest likelihood will be someone of a radicalized Islamist bent (Islamist versus merely being Muslim), or potentially a far right radical (this iverlaps, or someone of the ‘incel’ persuasion who is displeased with women not being attracted to his casual misogyny. These last few categories will likely have some overlap, probably an angry, young, single man who feels he is not where he should be romantically, socially, or economically.

In terms of formed plots with more than one perpetrator, with some sort of violent and ideological intent including loss of human life, odds are very good that you’re looking at either some hard right anti-government types, or radical islamists... the latter can overlap with the lone actors. Daesh’s ideology is still a threat.

The things that have actually happened in Canada recently lean heavily hard right / incel/anti Muslim. Minassian wanted to slaughter women. Bossi eye wanted to slaughter Muslims. Burden intended harm to the Prime Minister. Patrick Matthews, though he did his stupidity on the other side of the border, is hard right. Parliament Hill and Quebec were both radical islamist ideology, though also mentally ill lone Wolf actors. Similarly, the guy who went rogue in a U haul in Edmonton after stabbing a cop.

Canada does not have one universally applicable definition of ‘terrorism’. The Criminal Code defines it quite specifically, and to get those charges tight elements must be hit. A case may be factually, politically, and academically terrorism, but the evidence to achieve a viable prosecution either may not exist, may not be accessible (e.g., encrypted communications) or may not be admissible in court (e.g., national security intelligence). It’s a hell of a lot easier to write a search warrant for straight murder than for terrorism. In these cases, such mundane charges as ‘uttering threats’ and ‘murder’ may need to suffice, judicially. They may not suffice politically, but the latter system can only go so far in pushing the former. In this latest case, we’ll see if police have what they need.
The "sovereign citizens" would be a good example
 

brihard

Army.ca Fixture
Mentor
Reaction score
1,736
Points
890
The "sovereign citizens" would be a good example
They’re nearly all complete idiots - you have to be to believe that nonsense - but that combination of malignant stupidity, hatred of government, and genuine, ideological belief that the rules don’t apply to them is a dangerous combination for us.
 

Colin Parkinson

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
1,398
Points
940
Most are idiots who want to scam the system for free, however I have met a few up in the Yukon, who were polite, but made it clear they had no interest in taking part in society or depending upon it. They went to so effort to physically distance themselves from society to to avoid encounter as much as possible, those people I can respect as they do it at a cost to themselves.
 

The Bread Guy

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
282
Points
1,130
Most are idiots who want to scam the system for free, however I have met a few up in the Yukon, who were polite, but made it clear they had no interest in taking part in society or depending upon it. They went to so effort to physically distance themselves from society to to avoid encounter as much as possible, those people I can respect as they do it at a cost to themselves.
Like any group, though, it's the 1% of idiots who cause some to paint EVERYONE in the group with the same brush, including those who just want to carry on carrying on.
 

Pelorus

Member
Reaction score
98
Points
430
I would say there's a distinct difference between wanting to exist away from society/survivalist types and the things that "Sovereign Citizens" are notorious for, which hold all sorts of nutty ideas (mostly encouraged from what I can tell by a small group of charlatans who sell books or other materials giving advice on one's special rights as an S.C.).

Probably the best official summary of the movement is contained in an Albertan court decision, as it was relevant to I believe a family court case which required the judge to do his research:


3. Sovereign Men or Sovereign Citizens



[176] The Sovereign Man / Sovereign Citizen movement is the chief U.S. OPCA community. Several reported Ontario decisions document court interactions with self-identified Sovereign Men. This court has had a limited exposure to Sovereign Men, most notably being a lawsuit advanced by Glenn Winningham [“Winningham”] (usually self-styled as “Glenn Winningham: House of Fearn”): Winningham v. Canada (30 November 2010) Lethbridge 1006 00907 (Alta. Q.B.), leave to appeal denied (Alta. C.A.).


[177] I was a defendant in this action, along with Canada, Alberta, many police officers, the Prime Minister, government ministers, the Lieutenant and Governor Generals, and Alberta Court of Queen’s Bench Chief Justice Wittmann. The action alleged broad conspiracy and misconduct by Canadian state actors. A chief complaint by Winningham, who is a self-declared member of the “Republic of Texas”, is that Canada Customs had refused to admit him into Canada with his firearms. This was followed by a number of confrontations with Lethbridge area peace officers, particularly at traffic stops.


[178] Winningham’s documents claim he is not subject to Canadian law on ‘everything is a contract’ and ‘courts apply admiralty law’ bases. He also claimed ‘governments’ are only corporations. The allegations and rhetoric in his court submissions express a perspective that is alarming:


1 have tried to use administrative procedure against these criminals, but they don’t get the message, so this is the message. If they want to perjure their oaths of office and engage in TREASON and SEDITION, and BREACH OF TRUST, and other crimes to numerous to list, against Me, that they BETTER be prepared to go ALL THE WAY, and MURDER Me as well, because by the time I am done with them, (I will do it all within the law), they will wish they had MURDERED Me. It is My patriotic duty to come after them to My last dying breath, and I will file commercial liens against them, I will liquidate their bonds, I will file criminal complaints against them and their bosses, I will seize their assets, and I will not rest until I see them do that little dance they do at the end of a common law rope, and even then, in the next life, I will be DEMANDING Justice before the judgment BAR of God, to make sure they get to spend the rest of eternity receiving their just reward. Also, after I am dead and gone on to the next life, because this is on the record, these criminals will be hunted down, just like the NAZI war criminals that are still hunted down this day.



Furthermore, these criminals are hereby put on NOTICE that with criminals like them in this world, I have a DEATH wish, because this world is NOT big enough for both of us, so go ahead and make MY day, the sooner I am out of here the better, and I shall exercise My God given RIGHT to resist their unlawful arrest with lethal fource, if necessary, and then they will have an excuse to MURDER Me, so go ahead criminals, MAKE MY DAY!



[179] My part in the conspiracy was to “... shove ... foreign martial law jurisdiction down the throats of all of the people ...” as an excuse to “... bring out [my] martial law shock troops and really "kick some ass!"” This would alienate the populace from the Queen and trigger a coup d’etat.
 

Fishbone Jones

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
209
Points
710
They’re nearly all complete idiots - you have to be to believe that nonsense - but that combination of malignant stupidity, hatred of government, and genuine, ideological belief that the rules don’t apply to them is a dangerous combination for us.
Soveriegn citizens or government?
 

The Bread Guy

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
282
Points
1,130
From the police service's info machine ....
The London Police Service and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) Integrated National Security Enforcement Team (INSET) are sharing new information following the homicide of four members of one family, and the attempted homicide of a fifth member of the same family.

On June 6, 2021, a lone male (later identified as Nathaniel Veltman, 20) driving a black pickup truck, allegedly drove into the five victims at the intersection of Hyde Park Road and South Carriage Road in London, Ontario.

On June 7, 2021, Veltman was charged by the London Police Service with four counts of first-degree murder and one count of attempted murder.

The London Police Service worked in conjunction with RCMP INSET, the Ministry of the Attorney General (MAG) and the Public Prosecution Service of Canada (PPSC), determining that the murders constitute terrorist activity. As a result, the Federal and Provincial Attorneys General provided their consent to commence terrorism proceedings, alleging that the murders and the attempted murder also constitute terrorist activity.

Today, Nathaniel Veltman appeared at the London Courthouse, 80 Dundas Street, to answer to the following charges:
  • First-Degree murder, contrary to s.235 of the Criminal Code (4 counts) which, in addition to being planned and deliberate murders pursuant to s.231(2) of the Criminal Code, also constitute terrorism offences pursuant to sections 2, 83.01(1)(b) and 231 (6.01) of the Criminal Code; and
  • Attempt to commit murder, contrary to section 239(1) of the Criminal Code (1 count) which, in addition to being an attempted murder, also constitutes a terrorism offence pursuant to sections 2, 83.01(1)(b) and 83.27 of the Criminal Code.
The London Police Service and RCMP INSET wish to re-assure the public that there is no further known or suspected threat to the public associated to the accused at this time. The investigation is ongoing and will continue to be a collaborative effort between the London Police Service and RCMP INSET ...
Text also attached in case the link doesn't work for you.
 

Attachments

  • londonpolice.ca-London Police Service and Royal Canadian Mounted Police provide update on the ...pdf
    63.1 KB · Views: 1

OceanBonfire

Sr. Member
Reaction score
46
Points
330
...

Public Safety Minister Bill Blair announced Friday that the Three Percenters and Aryan Strikeforce will join the list alongside the Proud Boys, who were added in February after the storming of Capitol Hill in Washington on Jan. 6.

A 69-year-old white supremacist named James Mason, who senior intelligence officials describe as a lifelong neo-Nazi whose writings laid an ideological foundation for multiple terrorist groups, has also been placed on the proscriptive list.

...



 

OldSolduer

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
1,428
Points
910
Pardon my ignorance but weren’t the original Moors followers of Islam ??
 

dimsum

Army.ca Fixture
Mentor
Reaction score
1,093
Points
940
Pardon my ignorance but weren’t the original Moors followers of Islam ??
Wiki:

The term Moor is an exonym first used by Christian Europeans to designate the Muslim inhabitants of the Maghreb, the Iberian Peninsula, Sicily and Malta during the Middle Ages. The Moors initially were the indigenous Maghrebine Berbers.[1] The name was later also applied to Arabs and Arabized Iberians.[2]

Moors are not a distinct or self-defined people.[3] The 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica observed that the term had "no real ethnological value."[4] Europeans of the Middle Ages and the early modern period variously applied the name to Arabs, North African Berbers, as well as Muslim Europeans.[5]
 

Kilted

Sr. Member
Reaction score
200
Points
560
I got in an argument over Facebook with a freeman-on-the-land/sovereign citizen who said that an article of the Magna Carta that had been repealed in 1225 said that he didn't have to wear a mask in stores.
 
Top