Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins

[Dissident]

Well the IS the thread about replacing the BHP/Sig 225, I am sure there is a thread somewhere here about combat loads somewhere. I think it is a valid point/topic of discussion, just not the one at hand.

In any case, Sig does not make the 225 anymore and sooner or later MPs will need a replacement pistol.

 

[KevinB]

Pistol Cal PDW's the answer to the unneeded question.

You're not going to carry a PDW and a Long Gun, thats wronger than two boys fucking.  Pistols have a role with the conventional army -- digging around some tunnel or crawlspace in an Afghan house is one of those.

THe BHP was a fine gun, and if the CF guns were in better shape - adding better sights would probably all that is needed.  BUT the Inglis slide is not really conducive to adding aftermarket sights - so the frame needs to get milled, recoated and sights installed into the dovetails on the slide.
AND the kicker is the Inglis guns are WWII vintage guns.  Most got the crapped kicked out of the using the old 9mm SMG ammo which makes +P+ ammo seem like weak target loads.

Now as to the priority of the Pistol Program -- obviously the SOF side has the P226R, and perhaps it makes sense to do a limited buy of those for MP's.

I love pistols - I've carried one several places, and I'd take one every time over a bayonet.  But I think the CF has better funding priorities than a new GSP, and if it is a priority then real pistol training should take place in the CF outside of CANSOFCOM.
 

I'm chiming in on this as mostly a academic exercise for fun.

 

[Dissident]

Now as to the priority of the Pistol Program -- obviously the SOF side has the P226R, and perhaps it makes sense to do a limited buy of those for MP's.

I'd be ok with this, especially if we can get pistol mounted lights.

 

[NavyShooter]

But....pistol mounted lights would require new holsters, and everyone knows that the Bianchi UM-84 is the "Best in the world" ...  :moose:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Glock did make a run of G17’s with a external safety for a military, so they could do it again, but that likely eliminates the two advantages of Glock, being price and spare parts. SW M&P has a model that is now being offered with an external safety, very similar to a 1911 safety. So that makes them more attractive if an external safety is required.

 

[DirtyDog]

We should .... analyze the data from 10 years in Afghanistan and determine how many - if any - times the pistol was used in a combat situation.

I know of more than a few rounds fired.  Some defnitely "any".

 

[Ostrozac]

Glock did make a run of G17’s with a external safety for a military, so they could do it again, but that likely eliminates the two advantages of Glock, being price and spare parts. SW M&P has a model that is now being offered with an external safety, very similar to a 1911 safety. So that makes them more attractive if an external safety is required.

Actually, Colin, we specified NO external safeties for our new pistol. This item also eliminates the 9mm pistols that Colt does currently make, which are variants of the 1911. But those pistols are missing a whole bunch of the criteria.

Increasingly, I wonder if Kevin is right, and we should just get out of the general service pistol game. A C8 `Shorty Version` with a 5.56mm 10.3" barrel and iron sights would be pretty compact for most HQ types. I know that C77 ball has lethality issues with short barrels, but, then again, so does 9mm ball.

That might have the added advantage to make the purchases for people who actually need pistols (MP, fighter pilots, etc...) small enough amounts to sole-source off the shelf.

 

[Good2Golf]

A PDW would make an awful lot more sense, I think.

 

[Snaketnk]

Never fired the round, but I was happy to have my pistol . There were times I wanted to instill my will on others in places that my rifle or crew served weapons couldn't get.

Also, in Afghanistan, taking out a pistol is the universal "we mean business" symbol and will usually resolve things that long guns won't without escalating use of force.

In the grand scheme of things, carrying a pistol with two mags didn't add a whole lot to the weight of the stuff I was carrying; relative to the water, ammo, and other stuff.

 

[KevinB]

In Afghan and Iraq - the pistol was a very powerful tool, as the historical sense of the pistol was that it was often used to execute folks.

You could point a M203 at someone and get less respect for your 'point' than unholstering your pistol...

Now operationally, well perhaps less effective than a frozen ski boot in many hands.

The 11.5" C8CQB is in service with CANSOF units and could be cross pollinated for a lot of roles (really driver/cc/armored crew roles) however its still bigger than a lot of folks want, however as Ostrozac said - you may be able to get away then with a "pure fleet" P226R acquisition.

I'm not so aware of how the whole CANSOF funding rules work now, as it may affect things adversely - as can do down here in that the parent service of the SOF side funds common weapons needs.  However CANSOF effectively being purple (don't kill me guys - but I mean purple in not element/branch dependant like it is down here).  IF the CF allows CANSOF to acquire out of the GPF weapons it would jack the pistol beyond the way and means of a sole source?

I had understood that a former DHTC asset was being utilized to be the SME for the Pistol, both the acquisition and the new pam - and Frank likes Glocks, so I am surprised that the criteria seems to have been written to exclude it.

 

[blacktriangle]

If a modern pistol and better/more frequent training was an option, I'd go for that. But since some units barely seem to be able to keep people on the C7 (and nowhere near competent) maybe we are wasting our time.

 

[KevinB]

No reason to cater to the lowest common denominator though.

 

[PuckChaser]

But I think the CF has better funding priorities than a new GSP, and if it is a priority then real pistol training should take place in the CF outside of CANSOFCOM.

I think you hit the nail on the head, what good is a secondary weapon like a pistol without any marksmanship training to go with it? Op Attention had/has to do quick reaction drill training while in theatre as most of the time thats the only weapon we're carrying in close proximity to the ANA/ANP. However, by the time some groups got scheduled in, it was 3 months into the tour. We couldn't do it in Canada because there wasn't any money for ammunition or instructors.

The whole "Snr NCOs and Officers" mentality for pistol training needs to go out the window if we want everyone carrying them. Unless the CF likes to keep making thousands of dollars on all the NDs on tour by troops with little to no prior exposure to the BHP.

 

[KevinB]

Puckchaser -- I'm sorry but I call BS on that.

CANSOF has (or had) instructor cadre that can be called upon to conduct training.  However the biggest issue that one tends to see if either the unit refusing to budget - or refusing to accept that the internal personnel they have are not capable of instructing something - or not knowing what they don't know.

 

[Pte. Jay]

I wouldn't mind them picking us up some Beretta 92F's... But, of course, we're probably going to have to settle on second class equipment...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I wouldn't mind them picking us up some Beretta 92F's... But, of course, we're probably going to have to settle on second class equipment...

Really? What's your experience and reasoning behind that statement?

 

[JorgSlice]

Sig Sauer are by no means second class, I'd hand it to you if the CF were trying to buy cheap Asian knock-offs of the M1911 or other, but Sigs... come on man.

 

[Pte. Jay]

Really? What's your experience and reasoning behind that statement?

My uncle up in Barrie has a PX4 Storm, and a 92F and they're both amazing firearms. I just really like Berettas I guess :3 :yellow:

 

[Pte. Jay]

Sig Sauer are by no means second class, I'd hand it to you if the CF were trying to buy cheap Asian knock-offs of the M1911 or other, but Sigs... come on man.

LOOOL, I've seen enough of those knock off 1911's :') Sings are okay I guess. Is it weird that despite the amount they're praised, I hate Glocks? I've never even fired one and I hate them.

 

[brihard]

LOOOL, I've seen enough of those knock off 1911's :') Sings are okay I guess. Is it weird that despite the amount they're praised, I hate Glocks? I've never even fired one and I hate them.

Funny, I had the same attitude towards certain vegetables when I was six...