Replacing the Subs

[Czech_pivo]

Germany has added to their Type 212CD order, bringing the order book for type to 12 (Germany 6, Norway 6). Of interesting in the article was the statement that Germany should have 5 active submarines at all times, which suggested a fleet size of 15 (using a 3:1 ratio). Either way, if Canada was to join, we'd have some commonality with two NATO partners (presumably we'd be buying the slightly larger 212 CDE version, but that shares much with the 212 CD), so no "orphan fleet" concerns. Question is if there is capacity to get us the first boat by 2035.

Four Type 212CD Approved As Germany Increases Order

The German Parliament as part of a funding splurge on defence has approved an additional four Type 212CD submarines for the German Navy.

www.navalnews.com

thyssenkrupp Marine Systems

www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.nl

Always interesting to see countries like Germany or Norway that have coastlines similar or smaller than BC's entire coast obtaining more of a particular naval asset that us. We certainly should be obtaining a 12 at a min if Germany is getting 6.

Highly doubt that they have the bandwidth to add another 12 subs to their production line and meet both our requirement of an operational boat by 2035, produce another 11 for us and then meet their own timelines.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Germany has added to their Type 212CD order, bringing the order book for type to 12 (Germany 6, Norway 6). Of interesting in the article was the statement that Germany should have 5 active submarines at all times, which suggested a fleet size of 15 (using a 3:1 ratio). Either way, if Canada was to join, we'd have some commonality with two NATO partners (presumably we'd be buying the slightly larger 212 CDE version, but that shares much with the 212 CD), so no "orphan fleet" concerns. Question is if there is capacity to get us the first boat by 2035.

Four Type 212CD Approved As Germany Increases Order

The German Parliament as part of a funding splurge on defence has approved an additional four Type 212CD submarines for the German Navy.

www.navalnews.com

thyssenkrupp Marine Systems

www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.nl

Here's an interesting piece of info from the article -

"According to German defence media Hartpunkt NATO-goals entail a minimum of five German submarines available for operations from 2031. Applying the usual rule of thirds this figure implies up to 15 German submarines in service overall. However, availability-definitions likely include some slack allowing for fewer boats to meet the objective. The desired timeframe and total figures however raise questions over the German Navy’s ability to come true on stated intentions."

The German shipbuilder recently opened a brand new submarine production facility in Kiel which Naval News was able to tour earlier this year. Two parallel production lines would facilitate an acceleration in fielding the additional boats desired by both Germany and Norway. Whether production can ramp up quickly enough to allow the German Navy fielding five operational submarines by 2031 remains to be seen. TKMS is also pursuing sales opportunities for Type 212CD in Canada, Poland and India, although Naval News understands the focus with Delhi is on Type 214NG. Additional foreign orders would add further demand for increased production capacity.

 

[Underway]

I think they will get the Polish contract. That sub is ideal for the Baltics.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I think they will get the Polish contract. That sub is ideal for the Baltics.

The Baltic is going to be a very very packed place with all these subs being added to it. Its kind of like adding more and more fish into an aquarium. There are only so many that can be added into the aquarium without stressing out all the other fish and using up all the available oxygen/resources.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Can we say CAUKUS? Or maybe ACUKUS? Or what about USACUK?

This was a very interesting point.......

“There are opportunities for us to procure a lot of the go-forward military equipment, like the submarines from the United States. And certainly, we are open to that as part of the broader conversation,” said Wilkinson during an interview in Washington.

Canada floats defence purchases and critical minerals alliance to deter Trump tariffs​

Canada floats defence purchases and critical minerals alliance to deter Trump tariffs

Energy minister calls trade tensions a ‘distraction’ from China’s rising economic and military power

www.ft.com

 

[OldSolduer]

Can we say CAUKUS? Or maybe ACUKUS? Or what about USACUK?

This was a very interesting point.......

“There are opportunities for us to procure a lot of the go-forward military equipment, like the submarines from the United States. And certainly, we are open to that as part of the broader conversation,” said Wilkinson during an interview in Washington.

Canada floats defence purchases and critical minerals alliance to deter Trump tariffs​

Canada floats defence purchases and critical minerals alliance to deter Trump tariffs

Energy minister calls trade tensions a ‘distraction’ from China’s rising economic and military power

www.ft.com

Grasping at straws. Good Lord just accept the inevitable, the LPC is a disaster and it’s sinking fast. Rearrange those deck chairs FFS.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Whatever we might be purchasing from the Americans as it won't be submarines . The Americans having issues with their build rate.
As the Australians are finding out.

 

[YZT580]

Whatever we might be purchasing from the Americans as it won't be submarines . The Americans having issues with their build rate.
As the Australians are finding out.

quite possible if the libs have a say. Just think, they can make a commitment to a purchase that is at least 2 decades from fulfillment. Tallk about kicking the can down the road, puts you back in line with your allies and only costs you a few man years

 

[KevinB]

Whatever we might be purchasing from the Americans as it won't be submarines . The Americans having issues with their build rate.
As the Australians are finding out.

It isn't actually the built rate - but the USN's acquisition rate that has bottlenecked things. No one gets long lead time items when orders are not confirmed - now all of a sudden the USN wants more boats after delaying on the VA's (so much that Congress made them take more boats this and last year than they wanted). There are a lot of things afoot here in the USW arena, and the Primes have bought up a few yards and subcontractors to greatly expand their abilities to put boats into the water.

 

[CountDC]

Start WW3, that should ramp up production. WW2 worked. Amazing how slow everything becomes during peace time. Almost like no one really wants to invest in the military.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Start WW3, that should ramp up production. WW2 worked. Amazing how slow everything becomes during peace time. Almost like no one really wants to invest in the military.

two weeks after the victory parade

 

[Nvlgzr]

It isn't actually the built rate - but the USN's acquisition rate that has bottlenecked things. No one gets long lead time items when orders are not confirmed - now all of a sudden the USN wants more boats after delaying on the VA's (so much that Congress made them take more boats this and last year than they wanted). There are a lot of things afoot here in the USW arena, and the Primes have bought up a few yards and subcontractors to greatly expand their abilities to put boats into the water.

General Dynamics CEO Phebe Novakovic said that Electric Boat has been "severely impacted by late deliveries from major component suppliers," pushing back schedules and driving up costs.

Electric Boat Slows Down Sub Production Because of Delayed Parts

On Wednesday, in a confirmation of the concerns of U.S. Navy leadership, the head of General Dynamics said that her company would be slowing down the...

maritime-executive.com

 

[Kirkhill]

Can we say CAUKUS? Or maybe ACUKUS? Or what about USACUK?

This was a very interesting point.......

“There are opportunities for us to procure a lot of the go-forward military equipment, like the submarines from the United States. And certainly, we are open to that as part of the broader conversation,” said Wilkinson during an interview in Washington.

Canada floats defence purchases and critical minerals alliance to deter Trump tariffs​

Canada floats defence purchases and critical minerals alliance to deter Trump tariffs

Energy minister calls trade tensions a ‘distraction’ from China’s rising economic and military power

www.ft.com

Jonathan Wilkinson, Canada’s minister of energy and natural resources, said: ‘The challenge that we face internationally right now, it’s not Canada-US, it’s China’

MAGA 1, UFWD Nil

 

[Kirkhill]

Whatever we might be purchasing from the Americans as it won't be submarines . The Americans having issues with their build rate.
As the Australians are finding out.

I'd be happy with trucks, helos and Hercs.

Ships are probably better from overseas, as well as our home capacity.

 

[dimsum]

Can we say CAUKUS? Or maybe ACUKUS? Or what about USACUK?

This was a very interesting point.......

“There are opportunities for us to procure a lot of the go-forward military equipment, like the submarines from the United States. And certainly, we are open to that as part of the broader conversation,” said Wilkinson during an interview in Washington.

Canada floats defence purchases and critical minerals alliance to deter Trump tariffs​

Canada floats defence purchases and critical minerals alliance to deter Trump tariffs

Energy minister calls trade tensions a ‘distraction’ from China’s rising economic and military power

www.ft.com

USCAUK.

 

[Nvlgzr]

two weeks after the victory parade

Guessing a few weeks after the painting was created the ships were being stripped for construction materials. Back in those times, ships were likely constructed in months so it wouldn’t take long to ramp up. Unlike the present, where it can take decades (ie. JSS).

 

[Kirkhill]

Guessing a few weeks after the painting was created the ships were being stripped for construction materials. Back in those times, ships were likely constructed in months so it wouldn’t take long to ramp up. Unlike the present, where it can take decades (ie. JSS).

HMS Temeraire, last of the Ships of the Line that fought at Trafalgar being towed to the scrapyard by a filthy little steam tug in 1838.

98 guns, Second Rate Three Decker, complement of 738

Ordered 1790 - 9 December
Laid Down 1793
Launched 1798 - 11 September
Battle of Trafalgar 1805 - 21 October
Prison ship 1813–1819
Receiving ship 1820–1828
Victualling depot 1828–1836
Guard ship 1836–1838
Scrapped 1838

48 years of life
8 years to get her in the water
25 years as a hulk
15 years of service

HMS Temeraire (1798) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

She has a fascinating history.

...

HMS Victory, a 104 gun First Rate Three Decker,

Was ordered in July 1758 and laid down a year later in July 1759, the year of Minden, Quebec, Lagos, Pondicherry and Quiberon.
She was launched six years later in 1765, after the Seven Years war was concluded but she wasn't commissioned until 1778 for the American Revolution, 13 years later.
She fought from Ushant in 1778 to Trafalgar in 1805 - 27 years of service after waiting 20 years between being ordered and being commissioned.

She is still in service.

...

Point being. The Old RN and HM Governments weren't much better then than they are now.

After Waterloo all of those old ships of the line were laid up and left to rot before being decommissioned. The RN needed lots of frigates and sloops for its constabulary work suppressing the slavers.

...

By the time war broke out again in the 1850s the demand was for steamers.

...

Difficult predicting future requirements.

 

[Nvlgzr]

View attachment 90525

HMS Temeraire, last of the Ships of the Line that fought at Trafalgar being towed to the scrapyard by a filthy little steam tug in 1838.

98 guns, Second Rate Three Decker, complement of 738

Ordered 1790 - 9 December
Laid Down 1793
Launched 1798 - 11 September
Battle of Trafalgar 1805 - 21 October
Prison ship 1813–1819
Receiving ship 1820–1828
Victualling depot 1828–1836
Guard ship 1836–1838
Scrapped 1838

48 years of life
8 years to get her in the water
25 years as a hulk
15 years of service

HMS Temeraire (1798) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

She has a fascinating history.

...

HMS Victory, a 104 gun First Rate Three Decker,

Was ordered in July 1758 and laid down a year later in July 1759, the year of Minden, Quebec, Lagos, Pondicherry and Quiberon.
She was launched six years later in 1765, after the Seven Years war was concluded but she wasn't commissioned until 1778 for the American Revolution, 13 years later.
She fought from Ushant in 1778 to Trafalgar in 1805 - 27 years of service after waiting 20 years between being ordered and being commissioned.

She is still in service.

...

Point being. The Old RN and HM Governments weren't much better then than they are now.

After Waterloo all of those old ships of the line were laid up and left to rot before being decommissioned. The RN needed lots of frigates and sloops for its constabulary work suppressing the slavers.

...

By the time war broke out again in the 1850s the demand was for steamers.

...

Difficult predicting future requirements.

I’m shocked by the construction timeline. Thank you for the history lesson.

 

[Kirkhill]

I’m shocked by the construction timeline. Thank you for the history lesson.

Try this one on for size. Talk about your supply chain problems. (I'd heard about this one a long time ago but can't find the original reference).

In 1980 the Swedish Navy received a letter from the Forestry Department reporting that ‘the requested ship lumber was now ready to be used’.

Turns out that in 1829 the Swedish Parliament got worried that there’d be a shortage of wood in the next century that would put its navy at risk of not being able to build the ships it needed.

Sweden had just lost their forests in Pomerania and Wismar to war, their main source for oak timber.

Recognising that it takes 150 years for oaks to mature, the Swedish Parliament ordered 20,000 trees to be planted and protected for future navy use. Of course, by the time the trees had matured, ships were made of iron and steel.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1765138116187148501

 

[GK .Dundas]

Try this one on for size. Talk about your supply chain problems. (I'd heard about this one a long time ago but can't find the original reference).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1765138116187148501

I'd always heard it was he Danes and they'd started planting in the spring following Nelson's visit to Copenhagen..