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Replacing the Subs

blacktriangle

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Totally agree. Modern naval warfare moves fast. In an environment where you are essentially tracking and shooting down each other's bullets speed is important.

Naval warfare is very much a come as you are situation. This is why you see navies focus on flexible GP classes, the Arleigh Burke being the most common. A loadout change for its VLS and a different helicopter/UAS embarked can completely change its role in a war.
I wonder, if naval warfare were to take place in 2021, what would the biggest lessons learned be? Would we keep designing ships and structuring fleets as we do now? Or perhaps smaller, but more numerous vessels? More nuclear powered vessels to support energy requirements of future capabilities? More emphasis on subs and other underwater systems?

Subs...it seems like their entire weapons loadout (or most of it) would be capable of offensive action. Not to mention utility in ASW, or as an ISR asset. In contrast, at least to me, it looks like a modern surface vessel dedicates much of its capabilities to defending itself and its surrounding vessels. So shouldn't a military want more subs, and fewer surface vessels?
 

Underway

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I wonder, if naval warfare were to take place in 2021, what would the biggest lessons learned be? Would we keep designing ships and structuring fleets as we do now? Or perhaps smaller, but more numerous vessels? More nuclear powered vessels to support energy requirements of future capabilities? More emphasis on subs and other underwater systems?

Subs...it seems like their entire weapons loadout (or most of it) would be capable of offensive action. Not to mention utility in ASW, or as an ISR asset. In contrast, at least to me, it looks like a modern surface vessel dedicates much of its capabilities to defending itself and its surrounding vessels. So shouldn't a military want more subs, and fewer surface vessels?
Probably needs to be put into a new thread. If you start it, I will join in and speculate with you.
 

Colin Parkinson

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I wonder, if naval warfare were to take place in 2021, what would the biggest lessons learned be? Would we keep designing ships and structuring fleets as we do now? Or perhaps smaller, but more numerous vessels? More nuclear powered vessels to support energy requirements of future capabilities? More emphasis on subs and other underwater systems?

Subs...it seems like their entire weapons loadout (or most of it) would be capable of offensive action. Not to mention utility in ASW, or as an ISR asset. In contrast, at least to me, it looks like a modern surface vessel dedicates much of its capabilities to defending itself and its surrounding vessels. So shouldn't a military want more subs, and fewer surface vessels?
It will be a short war with a lot of ships sunk on both sides and the rest heading back to port as everyone is out of missiles and there will be no reloads waiting for them. Then the subs have a field day as they will have at least one set of reloads per sub.
 

CBH99

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I wonder, if naval warfare were to take place in 2021, what would the biggest lessons learned be? Would we keep designing ships and structuring fleets as we do now? Or perhaps smaller, but more numerous vessels? More nuclear powered vessels to support energy requirements of future capabilities? More emphasis on subs and other underwater systems?

Subs...it seems like their entire weapons loadout (or most of it) would be capable of offensive action. Not to mention utility in ASW, or as an ISR asset. In contrast, at least to me, it looks like a modern surface vessel dedicates much of its capabilities to defending itself and its surrounding vessels. So shouldn't a military want more subs, and fewer surface vessels?
I'll wait until the new thread is posted before getting too much into it -- fantastic question for discussion btw, Reveng.

I've learned over the past year or so of following the various shipbuilding threads how little I knew about shipbuilding. As an Alberta guy, I can honestly say I hadn't given it much thought beyond the extreme basics of 'buying domestic vs buying foreign', and the cost difference between those. I can openly and humbly say, I didn't know anything about shipbuilding - and despite a year of eagerly reading and doing some interesting Youtube searches, probably don't know anything worth mentioning.

I imagine the same is going to apply to this question/thread :)
 

YZT580

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Wonder if they have a friendly supplier for the batteries or if the raw material is sourced from China? Could be very problematic.
 

daftandbarmy

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One for showing, one for blowing, and one for a lady in distress :)


Canadian navy aims to have 3 submarines at sea by end of 2021​


For the first time in seven years, the Canadian navy expects to have three of its four submarines operating simultaneously by the end of 2021.

The achievement would mark the realization of a plan that was scuttled last year by faulty maintenance work and the COVID-19 pandemic.

The commander of the Canadian submarine force says the success of the plan depends largely on HMCS Corner Brook. The sub left dry dock in Victoria on June 13, following years of repairs and upgrades since running aground off Vancouver Island in 2011.

The sub was supposed to return to service last summer but its re-entry was delayed by a year after a maintenance contractor caused significant damage to one of its main ballast tanks.

The Corner Brook is now set to undergo a series of in-water tests, ideally culminating in a camber dive this fall and sea trials before the year is out.

Upon its return to service, the Corner Brook will join two other submarines – HMCS Victoria and HMCS Windsor – that were supposed to return to operations early last year but were instead tied up when maintenance work was stalled amid the pandemic.

HMCS Victoria eventually returned to the waters of B.C. last September, followed six months later by HMCS Windsor in Halifax.

If all goes according to plan, the end of 2021 will be first time Canada has had three subs in service simultaneously since 2014, according to Maritime Forces Pacific spokesperson Capt. Chelsea Dubeau.

The overlap in operating schedules will be short-lived, however. HMCS Victoria is slated to begin several years of maintenance work next summer after spending less than two years in the water.

The rigorous maintenance schedule underscores one of the main criticisms of Canada’s 40-year-old submarines, which have spent more time in repairs than in the water since they were bought second-hand from Britain in 1998.

“What one must understand is that a submarine – by design with the maintenance model – is only available approximately 50 per cent of the time,” says submarine force commander Capt. Jean Stéphane Oullet. “We’re making great strides right now to having three submarines back to operations by the end of the year.”

The fourth submarine, HMCS Chicoutimi, is currently in dry dock, where it will remain into 2023.

TESTING UNDERWAY ON NEW TORPEDO​


As the submarines cycle through the maintenance and modernization work necessary to extend their life into the mid-2030s, they are each being equipped with new sonar, communications and torpedo capabilities.

A new heavyweight torpedo – the Mark 48 Mod 7 – was first sought by the sub force in 2011, according to the U.S. Defence Security Cooperation Agency, the office in Washington that clears large foreign military sales.

“We’re just starting to receive those weapons right now,” says Oullet. “The first time that we’re going to be firing from a submarine will be in 2022.”

HMCS Windsor has been selected to test-fire the new torpedo off the East Coast next summer before the sub-sea weapon is eventually rolled out across the fleet. The Mod 7 torpedo, a conversion of the navy’s current Mod 4 weapon, is now being test-fired from a barge in Nanoose Bay, B.C.

“The main thing is that we went from an analog weapon to a digital weapon,” Oullet says. “I can’t get into the details of what the new weapon provides us but it’s an increase in capability.”

The subs are also gaining the capability to better detect icebergs, according to the sub commander.

A new Lockheed Martin sonar system is being installed fleet-wide and could open the door to undersea missions in the Far North.

The high-frequency sonar “is an enabler to Arctic operations for the Victoria-class submarine,” Oullet says, given its improved accuracy in detecting sea ice over the current system. “Should the need to arise to essentially get involved in Arctic security, we will do so.”

 

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The subs are also gaining the capability to better detect icebergs, according to the sub commander.

A new Lockheed Martin sonar system is being installed fleet-wide and could open the door to undersea missions in the Far North.

The high-frequency sonar “is an enabler to Arctic operations for the Victoria-class submarine,” Oullet says, given its improved accuracy in detecting sea ice over the current system. “Should the need to arise to essentially get involved in Arctic security, we will do so.”
I just wanted to highlight the sheer awesomeness of this.
 

Underway

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That's a problem though. We shouldn't be bragging about the capabilities of our awesome subs.

Right now, everyone thinks they suck. Based on what I know about submariners, I'm guessing that they planned that in some way in order to beguile our potential foes :)
Well Canadians have a right to know the general capabilities of what they are paying for. I think that the vagueness of the comment is probably good enough.
 

dimsum

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Well Canadians have a right to know the general capabilities of what they are paying for. I think that the vagueness of the comment is probably good enough.
I think you're both right. The CAF saying we have world-class XYZ is probably less impactful than something like the Sea Dragon 21 exercise, when our CP-140M won over the P-8s, despite it being about 30 years older.
 

Underway

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I think you're both right. The CAF saying we have world-class XYZ is probably less impactful than something like the Sea Dragon 21 exercise, when our CP-140M won over the P-8s, despite it being about 30 years older.
Pffft. It was because we Kobayashi Mariu'd that EX. It had nothing to do with the crew competence or aircraft upgrades. ;)
 

CBH99

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Pffft. It was because we Kobayashi Mariu'd that EX. It had nothing to do with the crew competence or aircraft upgrades. ;)
The fact that most military folks know what they means makes me happy to be a part of this clan, even though I'm out now. :) (y)
 

Colin Parkinson

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Japan just announced the discovery of a
Well Canadians have a right to know the general capabilities of what they are paying for. I think that the vagueness of the comment is probably good enough.
The general view is "They suck and none of them work". When I point out the deployments to Asia and the Med they generally are unaware.
 
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