Replacing the Subs

[Czech_pivo]

For Canada, Germany will not restrict the submarines. We have an MOU and other agreements on naval cooperation with Germany. Lots of good cooperation there.

Good to know.
Doesn't change the known limitations on the timelines and capacity. No getting around this.

 

[calculus]

A plea from the Germans/Norwegians?

German, Norwegian officials urge Canada to join 'familiar family' in buying new submarines​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/germany-norway-military-subs-1.7551526

Their bandwidth and timelines really just don't line up with our stated needs.

The German Navy will receive its first 212CD in 2028 while Norway is expected to be in the water the following year.

Oliver Burkhard, the CEO of tkMS, said should Canada join the current program it's possible the first Canadian boat could arrive within its requested timeframe. Although, he said, much depends on the Canadian government and how swiftly it moves.

Slipping into the production line at this point would likely involve redesigning one of the submarines already earmarked for either Germany or Norway, Burkhard said.

"I think there are opportunities to debate if one of those is maybe the first Canadian one," he said.

The tkMS pitch also involves a plan to construct a submarine maintenance facility in Canada, creating jobs for Canadians — an important condition the Liberal government has repeatedly underlined.
On the OTHER hand;

..."the South Koreans went a step further and delivered a detailed bid, claiming they could deliver four boats to Canada by 2035 — the deadline set by the navy to receive its first new submarine."
Which of the 2 sets of statements above makes you feel that we'll have a boat(s) in the water, in use, ready to go by 2035?

Looks like they are offering the 212 CD. If that's the case, I vote for KSSIII. If it was the 212 CDE, I might be more inclined to "like" that offer. That was a substantially improved version of the CD, though I don't know how developed it was. It was offered to the Netherlands for their sub program, so presumably more than just a concept. Of note though, it lost to the Naval Group Barracuda variant "Orka", which is also a good candidate for Canada. Given all we are asking these boats to do (expeditionary, trans-oceanic, under ice), I think that all points to a bigger boat. Crew comfort also supports a larger vessel. To my eye the 212 CD seems too small. But, I'm not a submariner, so I'm open to criticism on that point. Personally. given the effort that the Korean have put into this so far, and all the promises they have made, I still find the KSSIII to be the most promising option.

 

[calculus]

Another example of how committed the Koreans are:

Hanwha Ocean signs MOUs with Canadian partners BlackBerry and L3Harris - Canadian Defence Review

Hanwha Ocean of South Korea, signed Memorandums of Understanding (MOUs) with Canadian partners BlackBerry and L3Harris for long-term cooperation on the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project. The KSS-III Canadian Patrol Submarine (KSS-III CPS) is proven, in-service, in-production, has the fastest...

canadiandefencereview.com

 

[Rainbow1910]

Looks like they are offering the 212 CD. If that's the case, I vote for KSSIII. If it was the 212 CDE, I might be more inclined to "like" that offer. That was a substantially improved version of the CD, though I don't know how developed it was. It was offered to the Netherlands for their sub program, so presumably more than just a concept. Of note though, it lost to the Naval Group Barracuda variant "Orka", which is also a good candidate for Canada. Given all we are asking these boats to do (expeditionary, trans-oceanic, under ice), I think that all points to a bigger boat. Crew comfort also supports a larger vessel. To my eye the 212 CD seems too small. But, I'm not a submariner, so I'm open to criticism on that point. Personally. given the effort that the Korean have put into this so far, and all the promises they have made, I still find the KSSIII to be the most promising option.

The only public changes from the CD to the CDE model is a 10m~ hull extension, it's not a substantial improvement.

 

[calculus]

The only public changes from the CD to the CDE model is a 10m~ hull extension, it's not a substantial improvement.

Which allows the extra fuel for increased endurance to give it Expeditionary capabilities, something Canada wants. Seems like a pretty substantial improvement to me.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Which allows the extra fuel for increased endurance to give it Expeditionary capabilities, something Canada wants. Seems like a pretty substantial improvement to me.

It is an improvement to be sure, but I personally reserve such language for more than just a endurance hull insertion on a design that hasn't even seen the water yet.

 

[suffolkowner]

if it makes the decision easier and quicker so much the better. Sign us up for the KSS-III