Replacing the Subs

[MilEME09]

Still need almost twice as many sailors for the KSS III compared to the 212CD. And if we decide to go with Blue/Gold double crew system that challenge gets much bigger.

The RCN is struggling now to train enough sailors for the current surface fleet. Training new submariners will be a significant challenge .

Which requires a significant recruitment strategy, dont underestimate the attraction of shiny new kit vs your grandpa's subs too

 

[PHughes]

Truth.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Which requires a significant recruitment strategy, dont underestimate the attraction of shiny new kit vs your grandpa's subs too

Add to that a significant pay raise.

 

[Czech_pivo]

If I d this snippet from a news report today to be interesting -
“
That is what makes next week’s closed-door visit to Sweden by Industry Minister Mélanie Joly (also minister responsible for Canada Economic Development for Quebec Regions), and Stephen Fuhr, secretary of state for defence procurement, all the more interesting from a geopolitical perspective.

Joly and Fuhr will meet with Ebba Busch, Sweden’s deputy prime minister (also business and industry minister), and Pål Jonson, Sweden’s minister for defence, “to advance their collaboration” and “deepen the Canada–Sweden relationship,” an advisory about their visit says.”

It could we are looking in the wrong directly when we think Sweden, SAAB and Gripen, when we might be better off thinking Sweden, SAAB and A26.
Maybe the focus is a joint development with SAAB and Davy? in a joint venture tire to say build the first 7-8 subs in Sweden and then the last 4-5 at Davy? I’m totally speculating on Davy for 2 reasons, first only shipyard left with the infrastructure/size/availability to potentially be in a position to build subs in the 8yrs+ timeframe and, second, potential carrot to dangle in front of Quebec getting on board and saying ‘yes’ to a new oil/gas pipeline/terminal east of Quebec City or dropping down to New Brunswick at Saint John’s Irving facility. This approach gets Quebec on board with an expanded Davy shipyard and the jobs with it, keeps Irving happy with a new pipeline to its refinery in Saint John, which lessens the blow of losing out on Davy getting the sub work.
I’m spit balling here, but it’s the type of horse trading that will need to happen to get theses big infrastructure projects built.

 

[Maxman1]

Still need almost twice as many sailors for the KSS III compared to the 212CD.

Which is roughly the same number as the Victoria class.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Add to that a significant pay raise.

Coupled with a downturn in the economy, with Condo's sales in Vancouver in freefall, expect a lot of trades to be looking for work soon out here.

 

[Rifleman62]

Joly and Fuhr will meet with Ebba Busch, Sweden’s deputy prime minister (also business and industry minister), and Pål Jonson, Sweden’s minister for defence, “to advance their collaboration” and “deepen the Canada–Sweden relationship,” an advisory about their visit says.”

I am hoping for Combat Vehicle 90.

 

[MilEME09]

I am hoping for Combat Vehicle 90.

You'll take your M4 carl G and like it.

Back to crew size on subs, the KSS3 mim crew is 30, standard 50, which is around Victoria size. Yet significant size increase and capability increase for us, especially with land attack capability.

 

[Stoker]

I was talking to a couple of submariners the other day as their office is very close to mine. We got to talking and they think the new submarine will be a German design based on what they heard. Hopefully we'll know in a year.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I was talking to a couple of submariners the other day as their office is very close to mine. We got to talking and they think the new submarine will be a German design based on what they heard. Hopefully we'll know in a year.

Technically the SK subs were based on a German design. They bought some, ran them and then built their own. I have concerns the Germans are overstating their abilty to deliver and provide the economic support.

If SK got the contract, I could see them build the support base on the East Coast first, with the first 1 to 2 subs going there, while we kept the Victoria's on the West coast and then demob the Victorias and refurbish the base, with the West Coast sub possibly based in SK till the base is ready.

Anyone heard what they hope to do with the Vic's? Gift them to Australia to supplement their Collin's while they wait for AUKUS to deliver?

 

[Czech_pivo]

Technically the SK subs were based on a German design. They bought some, ran them and then built their own. I have concerns the Germans are overstating their abilty to deliver and provide the economic support.

If SK got the contract, I could see them build the support base on the East Coast first, with the first 1 to 2 subs going there, while we kept the Victoria's on the West coast and then demob the Victorias and refurbish the base, with the West Coast sub possibly based in SK till the base is ready.

Anyone heard what they hope to do with the Vic's? Gift them to Australia to supplement their Collin's while they wait for AUKUS to deliver?

I do not see how the Germans will be able to meet our timetable, it’s near impossible for them to do so.

 

[Genetk44]

I do not see how the Germans will be able to meet our timetable, it’s near impossible for them to do so.

When has that ever influenced a Liberal government.

 

[Maxman1]

Anyone heard what they hope to do with the Vic's? Gift them to Australia to supplement their Collin's while they wait for AUKUS to deliver?

Payback for the old F-18s they sold us?

 

[k.numbers]

Very true, but for that tonnage you get a lot more capability from those VLS tubes. I have wonder if their crewing is a doctrine/training thing or a actual hard requirement thing? Also if your not using the VLS on a patrol/training/exercise, does that reduce crew demands? They might have a separate team to manage the SBM's?

I think it's a bit of both. Being a conscription system; the Koreans have a lot of manpower on short (1-2 year) service and the way they man units reflects that. Can't exactly spend 12 to 18 months training someone if their service period is only 2 years. So they tend to have more crew that are trained more narrowly on specific jobs.

The RFI had a maximum crew size of 40 in its requirements list (the ROK Navy runs the KSS III with 50) and the proposal that Hanwha submitted met our crew size requirement. So getting down to 40 is certainly a doctrine and training thing, but the absolute minimum may still be higher than the 212CD.

 

[OldSolduer]

I am hoping for Combat Vehicle 90.

Nothing is too good for our troops so…
I’m sure y’all know the rest

 

[Czech_pivo]

Now that it looks like we're in the EU camp in terms of rearmament (through SAFE) and access to their loan structure, this bit of information coming out of Poland might play out here with our submarine selection as well.

Korea Strives to Win 8 Trillion Won Polish Submarine Modernization Project​

Pressured by EU's ‘Buy European’ Policy, Korea Sends Presidential Envoy to Persuade Poland​

Korea Strives to Win 8 Trillion Won Polish Submarine Modernization Project

The Lee Jae-myung administration is making efforts to secure the Polish Navy’s submarine modernization project, which has hit the European Union (EU)'s “Buy Eu

www.businesskorea.co.kr

The Lee Jae-myung administration is making efforts to secure the Polish Navy’s submarine modernization project, which has hit the European Union (EU)'s “Buy European” barrier, by sending a presidential special envoy to persuade Poland.

According to the defense industry, a presidential special envoy led by Rep. Park Ji-won, a member of the Democratic Party of Korea, visited Poland on July 28-29. The Lee Jae-myung government is the first Korean government to dispatch a presidential envoy to Poland since its inauguration. Lee also sent a presidential envoy to Canada on July 22 to engage in diplomatic efforts for securing the Canadian submarine project.

The envoy’s dispatch to Poland is largely due to the Polish Navy's Orka submarine project. Poland is pursuing the project to introduce three new state-of-the-art submarines. The goal is to modernize the Polish naval forces. The construction cost is estimated at about 3 trillion won, and including ship maintenance and repair projects, the total scale is estimated at 8 trillion won. Eleven shipbuilders have submitted requests for information (RFI) to the Polish government, including France’s Naval Group, Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, Sweden’s Saab Kockums, and Italy’s Fincantieri.

Korean companies had been in a favorable position for winning the contract. Korean shipbuilders had the earliest possible delivery dates, price competitiveness, and technological superiority. Germany, France, and Sweden had proposed participation when Poland first started the project in 2014, but the project itself was canceled as they failed to meet Poland’s requirements. Poland announced the restart of the project in July 2023. Hanwha Ocean proposed the 3,600-ton class Jangbogo-III Batch-II submarine currently under development for the Korean Navy, which is known to be the most advanced and strongest conventional submarine in the world.

However, an obstacle emerged. Under pressure from U.S. President Donald Trump, the European Union (EU) decided to increase defense spending. The EU declared “rearmament within 5 years” and announced a “Buy European” policy, prioritizing the purchase of products within the EU. Ursula von der Leyen, president of the European Commission, stated on March 3 that European weapons would be prioritized when announcing the 800 billion euro “European Rearmament Plan.”

Poland, which had been eyeing Korea, found itself in a difficult position. It could have introduced Korea’s cutting-edge submarines in the shortest time while saving on defense costs, but now it might miss this opportunity. The Polish deputy minister of defense visited Germany and France to inspect submarine technology and evaluate proposals, indicating that the bidding war was turning unfavorable for Korea.

To sway Poland’s decision, the presidential special envoy was dispatched. Hanwha Ocean and HD Hyundai Heavy Industries, which had initially pursued individual bids, agreed to form a single team under the supervision of the Defense Acquisition Program Administration. The presidential special envoy used negotiation cards such as promising perfect localization from local factory construction to maintenance, repair, and operation (MRO), and 1 trillion won reinvestment if Korea’s submarines were purchased. They also persuaded Poland not to contract European weapons immediately to confront the U.S., but to make a practical choice.

In a meeting with the Polish foreign minister, Rep. Park said, “Korean shipbuilding technology is the best in the world. Even President Trump has mentioned this several times,” and added, “In particular, it is highly commendable that Hanwha Ocean and HD Hyundai Heavy Industries, which are competitors, have formed a one-team consortium." Park said the Polish government showed a positive response.

The conclusion of the Polish submarine bid is expected to come at the end of this year. An industry official explained, “Korea was pushed into a defensive position in the bidding war but has reset the game with active government support,” adding, “We hope that Poland will accept Korea’s logic as much as possible."

 

[Good2Golf]

Payback for the old F-18s they sold us?

It was Canada’s hare-brained idea to buy them, not the other way around. Is was nothing more than a Trudeau-driven game of obfuscation to ass-cover his ‘No F-35s’ [unspoken: Zip, Zilch, Zero ] 2015 electoral ‘promise.’

 

[Maxman1]

It was Canada’s hare-brained idea to buy them, not the other way around. Is was nothing more than a Trudeau-driven game of obfuscation to ass-cover his ‘No F-35s’ [unspoken: Zip, Zilch, Zero ] 2015 electoral ‘promise.’

And canceling the interim Super Hornet buy because Boeing accused Bombardier of dumping.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Still need almost twice as many sailors for the KSS III compared to the 212CD. And if we decide to go with Blue/Gold double crew system that challenge gets much bigger.

The RCN is struggling now to train enough sailors for the current surface fleet. Training new submariners will be a significant challenge .

A recent interview in CDR Magazine with a retired Korean Vice Admiral clears up this;

At the same time, the KSS-III CPS requires fewer crew members than older submarines do. This could be good news for the RCN, given its current recruitment and retention issues. “Each of the KSS-llls incorporates a high degree of automation and can operate with a standard crew size of 33 sailors — although there is room to embark as many as 50 crew members,” said VAdm (Ret’d) Jeong. There are also three decks on each KSS-III CPS, which Hanwha Ocean officials emphasize would allow for greater habitability and mixed gender crews.

The standard crew size of the KSS-III is 33 sailors, although the design has room to accommodate up to 50 if required. That seems to be the confusion, so KSS-III does not seemingly require that many sailors, it just has the capability to onboard more if needed.

There was some other interesting claims made in the interview itself;

Hanwha Ocean can deliver the first KSS-II CPS in just six years, followed by additional units at a pace of one per year. Assuming a contract award in 2026, the first four submarines can be delivered by 2035, the first delivered in 2032, to fully replace Canada’s current Victoria-class submarine fleet. Earlier retirement of this fleet will result in estimated savings of approximately $1 billion on maintenance costs. The additional eight submarines will be delivered at a rate of one per year, meaning the entire fleet of 12 can be delivered to Canada by 2043.

Better yet, the KSS-III CPS proposal submitted by Hanwha Ocean to Ottawa included a training plan that would see Canadians receive operational and maintenance training in Korea while the first submarines are being constructed. This approach would allow an RCN crew to sail the boat upon delivery and be ready to conduct operations almost immediately. When it comes to replacing the Victoria-class submarines in an efficient manner, Hanwha Ocean has done its homework.

“Training would be comprehensive and fully Canadianized,” noted VAdm (Ret’d) Jeong. “We also plan to establish a domestic Through-Life Support (TLS) Centre in Canada, creating hundreds of high-value, skilled jobs and enhancing the Royal Canadian Navy's sovereign submarine sustainment capabilities. This facility will provide comprehensive training, maintenance, modernization, and operational readiness for the entire fleet, spanning over 30 to 40 years. The ISS centre will be staffed by Canadians and integrated ‘with Hanwha’s Canadian industry partners.”

 

[Rifleman62]

The Polish deputy minister of defense visited Germany and France to inspect submarine technology and evaluate proposals.........

I would hope that any government sending a representative anywhere would also include SME's, and in this case Submariners (not just a politician).