Replacing the Subs

[Sub Standard]

Not in the dockyard area, but they are looking more down by Shearwater (which may need another firehall and other things). Will be a much better commute at least for a lot of people, and then hopefully surface ships won't be fighting for the same FMF resources and playing second fiddle to them like we do now. All kind of depends if we actually commit to 8 or 12 subs though, as well as figure out where they are based. Esquimalt is even tighter for space, so maybe make sense to look at a standalone sub squadron base on the West coast, and consider the mainland as well.

Halifax in general is already going to need significant infra upgrades to the dockyard for the surface fleet, which is ongoing, but also the training schools, ammo depot and a lot of the Shearwater RCAF related infra is on the wishlist.

The rumors I have heard, and I have seen nothing on paper, is that for the east coast they are looking at NAD in Dartmouth and on the Colwood side of the harbour for the west coast. But again I have seen nothing official.

 

[Underway]

Amusing

We're adults on the forum (or at least pretend we are). This is not an acceptable post. You disagree you do so respectfully with facts or a different opinion.

 

[Underway]

Not in the dockyard area, but they are looking more down by Shearwater (which may need another firehall and other things). Will be a much better commute at least for a lot of people, and then hopefully surface ships won't be fighting for the same FMF resources and playing second fiddle to them like we do now. All kind of depends if we actually commit to 8 or 12 subs though, as well as figure out where they are based. Esquimalt is even tighter for space, so maybe make sense to look at a standalone sub squadron base on the West coast, and consider the mainland as well.

Halifax in general is already going to need significant infra upgrades to the dockyard for the surface fleet, which is ongoing, but also the training schools, ammo depot and a lot of the Shearwater RCAF related infra is on the wishlist.

Don't forget that Coast Guard facilities now belong to DND. Expect those jetties and facilities to now be in play for co-location of resources. There has already been public discussion on this by GOFO's. I'm sure the CCG get a vote but something to consider.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Don't forget that Coast Guard facilities now belong to DND. Expect those jetties and facilities to now be in play for co-location of resources. There has already been public discussion on this by GOFO's. I'm sure the CCG get a vote but something to consider.

With the number of ships that the CCG is getting over the next 10+yrs I would imagine that alot of their jetties/facilities will be on the block for rejuvenation and expansion as well.

 

[Navy_Pete]

The rumors I have heard, and I have seen nothing on paper, is that for the east coast they are looking at NAD in Dartmouth and on the Colwood side of the harbour for the west coast. But again I have seen nothing official.

The issue there is a lot of the maintenance activities and ammunitioning activities don't play together, and there is a very good reason there is a lot of empty space around ammo depots. Even with bunkering and blast walls co-locating at NAD is dumb for a lot of reasons.

I guess I'll find out, should be helping with the fire protection and response capabilities as the project gets going.

 

[YZT580]

With the number of ships that the CCG is getting over the next 10+yrs I would imagine that alot of their jetties/facilities will be on the block for rejuvenation and expansion as well.

could always re-activate Argentia. Beautiful harbour easy approaches, old airport could be re-vamped for helicopters and it would add at least 2 days to time on station

 

[PHughes]

Not a mission that exists in real life. This isn't Helldivers or XCOM (where that mission exists, only in video games). I think your either referring too a second strike capability (which is a WMD concept) or misundertanding that the KSS III VLS ballistic missiles are actually designed to be secure bunker busters that can't be pre targeted by the North, providing redundancy and survivability to South Korea in that area.

It is hybrid boat with a dedicated Boomer capability the Koreans need for a retaliatory strike capability in case Kimmy goes off the rails

Well batteries are the oldest AIP technology that exits in submarines. Older isn't necessarily worse. I think the German AIP is clunky, expensive and like a lot of German engineering over designed. And frankly I suspect that with LI tonnage replacing AIP tonnage we'll hit the indiscretion rate we need with no AIP required. On both submarines

Seriously? The commenly accepted definition of AIP is a system that produces electricity as differentiated from batteries that store/release electricity

Incorrect on both accounts. All submarine operations are cold water operation, its 2-4 degrees at 200 feet down most places. If you're saying the Korean submarines are not as stealthy at German ones then I would agree with that.


Land attack capability is required by the RCN. VLS does this better than horizontally launched ordinance that Germany will be able to bid.

A dedicated land attack capability is to required or desired.

Sure. Twist it that way if you like. But given Korean ship build chops I'm not going to bet against it.

Agree, Korea is probably,y the best ship building nation on the planet.

Should have had the JSS built there . Fraction the cost, much much faster

Not true, there are further batches coming with upgraded aspects (like more VLS etc...). And it automatically stops being an orphan design when we buy it. And frankly ships are almost all orphan designs, its the equipment that is inside that is a concern, not the total package.

Korea has no plans to continue the KSS SERIES. They have a,ready proposed a Next Gen boat

NATO has build standards, and Canada has build standards. And at the end of the day those are guidlines. As long as the comms are compliant.


Ok... not sure where you're going with this, but Korea has shown decades of political stability overall. Society hasn't collapsed or been overthrown. They deliver their products on time. The whos and whatfors of their internal party politics and shenanigans don't concern me.

Acquuiing a fleet of boats from a nation that would likely be gone, or at least its naval building capability destroyed on Day 1 when China starts their war of expansion means a fleet without depot level parts or service

Neither can I and I'm Mr. Glass is Half full.

 

[Underway]

It is hybrid boat with a dedicated Boomer capability the Koreans need for a retaliatory strike capability in case Kimmy goes off the rails

The capability is a stealthy survivable platform that can fire ballistic missiles that will be able to destroy NK command bunkers. I'm telling you retaliatory strike is not a mission set. It's a news organization shorthand for "revenge".

Seriously? The commenly accepted definition of AIP is a system that produces electricity as differentiated from batteries that store/release electricity

The engineering definition is a propulsion system that doesn't require air to work. For example, nuclear is the best of the AIP systems, but put into a special category because of its unique characteristics.

My point however, is that the submerged endurance requirements can likely be met with new battery technology, AIP may not be necessary.

And I really don't like the German AIP. It works for the Baltics and North Sea. Not convinced for its usefulness with our long endurance requirements. Anything that is basically "more fuel" doesn't sit overwell with me.

Korea has no plans to continue the KSS SERIES. They have a,ready proposed a Next Gen boat

I expected a Block III production line. My mistake.

Acquuiing a fleet of boats from a nation that would likely be gone, or at least its naval building capability destroyed on Day 1 when China starts their war of expansion means a fleet without depot level parts or service

You could make the exact same argument with Russia visavi Germany. A lot of assumptions in both those scenarios.

My main concern with the German subs are CDE doesn't exist. It's an extended version of a smaller sub. I have significant doubts as to its actual endurance (maybe I'm wrong here). Germany builds subs for small bodies of water, North Sea, Baltics, Med etc... Korean subs are designed for more open ocean and have proven longer sailing endurance. They also have size which would allow for future proofing. And they can be built 2 years faster than German can (which said first sub would be 2034 where as Koreas stated we'd have 4 by then).

Again in this case I don't think there is a wrong choice from the capability side. Just different priorities. The submariners who decided that these two were ok to go (submariners on the project staff) know what they are talking about. I would be super excited for.either to be chosen.

 

[PHughes]

“If they want or demand special reasons to build them in Canada . . . “

 

[Czech_pivo]

could always re-activate Argentia. Beautiful harbour easy approaches, old airport could be re-vamped for helicopters and it would add at least 2 days to time on station

My father in law was stationed there as a LT JG in the USAF in the early 50s. He was a Navigator on the Constellations.

 

[PHughes]

IThe capability is a stealthy survivable platform that can fire ballistic missiles that will be able to destroy NK command bunkers. I'm telling you retaliatory strike is not a mission set. It's a news organization shorthand for "revenge".

The engineering definition is a propulsion system that doesn't require air to work. For example, nuclear is the best of the AIP systems, but put into a special category because of its unique characteristics.

My point however, is that the submerged endurance requirements can likely be met with new battery technology, AIP may not be necessary.

That would be phenomenal . . . Any references on this technology?

And I really don't like the German AIP. It works for the Baltics and North Sea. Not convinced for its usefulness with our long endurance requirements. Anything that is basically "more fuel" doesn't sit overwell with me.

The Korean AIP is essentially the older German version that Korea adopted for their boats when they were building Type 214s under license from TKMS Now highly indigined with Korean suppliers

I expected a Block III production line. My mistake.

You could make the exact same argument with Russia visavi Germany. A lot of assumptions in both those scenarios.

My main concern with the German subs are CDE doesn't exist. It's an extended version of a smaller sub. I have significant doubts as to its actual endurance (maybe I'm wrong here). Germany builds subs for small bodies of water, North Sea, Baltics, Med etc... Korean subs are designed for more open ocean and have proven longer sailing endurance. They also have size which would allow for future proofing. And they can be built 2 years faster than German can (which said first sub would be 2034 where as Koreas stated we'd have 4 by then).

Again in this case I don't think there is a wrong choice from the capability side. Just different priorities. The submariners who decided that these two were ok to go (submariners on the project staff) know what they are talking about. I would be super excited for.either to be chosen.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My reading is that with advances in battery technology, that there are opinions that the internal volumes used for AIP, is better served by increasing the amount of batteries.

 

[suffolkowner]

My reading is that with advances in battery technology, that there are opinions that the internal volumes used for AIP, is better served by increasing the amount of batteries.

see the Japanese subs

 

[quadrapiper]

Esquimalt is even tighter for space, so maybe make sense to look at a standalone sub squadron base on the West coast, and consider the mainland as well.

Where would make sense for that? Or, perhaps, for somewhere to shuffle AOPVs, corvettes, or PCTs to make room in Esquimalt Harbour?

Shame the Saanich Peninsula is so built up, and the federal holdings so constricted.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Where would make sense for that? Or, perhaps, for somewhere to shuffle AOPVs, corvettes, or PCTs to make room in Esquimalt Harbour?

Shame the Saanich Peninsula is so built up, and the federal holdings so constricted.

Could shuffle Orcas to the Coast Guard (DND) base in Pat Bay, or maybe to the coast guard base in Victoria Harbour. Same with Corvettes.

 

[YZT580]

Where would make sense for that? Or, perhaps, for somewhere to shuffle AOPVs, corvettes, or PCTs to make room in Esquimalt Harbour?

Shame the Saanich Peninsula is so built up, and the federal holdings so constricted.

Places like Port Hardy or even Kitimat could easily accommodate a naval base as could any number of bays but getting people to go there could be a bitch. Going by the way people react when revamping places like North Bay is suggested putting a base in Port Hardy would surely trigger a mass exodus. So where is there land available near a major city that is suitable for a secure dock facility, depot and housing on either coast? The answer is nowhere. Between harbour services, maintenance services, the crews themselves, families I am guessing that the sub force itself is going to generate upwards of a thousand new residents. Schools will need more classrooms and teachers, grocery stores, a Walmart?> That is the makings of a small town all by itself without any additional expansion.

 

[YZT580]

Could shuffle Orcas to the Coast Guard (DND) base in Pat Bay, or maybe to the coast guard base in Victoria Harbour. Same with Corvettes.

That would go over well. We didn't get a warm fuzzy feeling for the navy when we were in Esquimalt last unless things have changed.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Could shuffle Orcas to the Coast Guard (DND) base in Pat Bay, or maybe to the coast guard base in Victoria Harbour. Same with Corvettes.

Orcas would make sense; they are pretty much independently run in their own world and maintained by the ISSC (now being taken over by Thales from SNC) so they don't need to be near FMF at all.

Still can't see how new Corvettes make any sense though; we will struggle to crew/support the fleet that's coming and we're already behind the 8 ball at getting crews set up for RCD (which will likely need major changes to the ops room trades as well as getting trained HTs back up to the PO1 level), and some of those things have been stalled for 5 years or more due to bottle necks with TDOs etc.

 

[quadrapiper]

Could shuffle Orcas to the Coast Guard (DND) base in Pat Bay, or maybe to the coast guard base in Victoria Harbour. Same with Corvettes.

Could definitely make more of both the Pat Bay and Victoria CCG sites.

Wonder if the Pauquichin up at Coles Bay would be interested in some development and a long, long lease, too, if reasonable options for jetty expansion ran out elsewhere.

On the Lower Mainland, Port Moody seems vaguely possible for, though it would mean crazy expensive new build and being way up at the back end of a very busy and confined inlet.