Replacing the Subs

[Stoker]

Perhaps to sweeten the pot Hanwha can build us a couple of inspection vessels for underwater infrastructure and a couple of submarine tenders/rescue ships at a good discount.

 

[PHughes]

Or maybe we can trade with Norway . . . a River class/Type 26 ship for one of their early delivery Type 212CD boats?

 

[Nvlgzr]

Or maybe we can trade with Norway . . . a River class/Type 26 ship for one of their early delivery Type 212CD boats?

Or not. We need both pronto and can’t afford to delay either. Also BAE Govan/Clyde is most likely to deliver 1st vessel for Norway before Fraser is commissioned.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Or not. We need both pronto and can’t afford to delay either. Also BAE Govan/Clyde is most likely to deliver 1st vessel for Norway before Fraser is commissioned.

BAE Govan/ Clyde is most likely to have completed Type 26 production Before Fraser is commissioned.
If our current procurement issues continue down the same road.
That's one of the reasons I'm in favor of the the Korean bid. We're running out of time quite frankly.

 

[Nvlgzr]

Noah has written a great article on KSS-III weapons: Lets Talk about the Munitions of the KSS-III

 

[GR66]

Noah has written a great article on KSS-III weapons: Lets Talk about the Munitions of the KSS-III

Interesting article. I'll admit to being a bit of a South Korea hawk when it comes to the chance to diversify our military equipment supply and take advantage of their willingness to allow domestic production.

The KS III has some excellent and useful capabilities and Hanwha likely has a much better chance of delivering on time than TKMS however with ASW against Russian/Chinese subs being the most likely (and domestically important) defence role for our subs I think I'd lean toward the stealthiness of the 212CD.

The KS III's vertical launch tubes certainly give it an advantage over the 212CD if we end up needing a land attack/ASuW role, but in the primary ASW role that we need our subs to do stealth and sensors are key and from what I understand that's where the 212CD excels.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Interesting article. I'll admit to being a bit of a South Korea hawk when it comes to the chance to diversify our military equipment supply and take advantage of their willingness to allow domestic production.

The KS III has some excellent and useful capabilities and Hanwha likely has a much better chance of delivering on time than TKMS however with ASW against Russian/Chinese subs being the most likely (and domestically important) defence role for our subs I think I'd lean toward the stealthiness of the 212CD.

The KS III's vertical launch tubes certainly give it an advantage over the 212CD if we end up needing a land attack/ASuW role, but in the primary ASW role that we need our subs to do stealth and sensors are key and from what I understand that's where the 212CD excels.

Personally I feel that the adaptability which the VLS aboard the KSS-III provides is more valuable to the RCN than whatever excess sensor/stealth capabilities that the Type 212CD has over the KSS-III. The Koreans are also facing Chinese submarines right on their doorstep alongside the potential of Japanese submarines as well, I don't think they are especially slouches in the ASW requirements. With the VLS number issues aboard the River class vessels, I think having a platform like KSS-III that can launch anti-shipping missile and cruise missile strikes would bring a considerable capability to the force that the Type 212CD isn't well equipped to match with its horizontally launched weapons alone. It provides us with a significant amount of sovereign and stealthy strike capabilities that no other Canadian platform can boast.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Personally I feel that the adaptability which the VLS aboard the KSS-III provides is more valuable to the RCN than whatever excess sensor/stealth capabilities that the Type 212CD has over the KSS-III. The Koreans are also facing Chinese submarines right on their doorstep alongside the potential of Japanese submarines as well, I don't think they are especially slouches in the ASW requirements. With the VLS number issues aboard the River class vessels, I think having a platform like KSS-III that can launch anti-shipping missile and cruise missile strikes would bring a considerable capability to the force that the Type 212CD isn't well equipped to match with its horizontally launched weapons alone. It provides us with a significant amount of sovereign and stealthy strike capabilities that no other Canadian platform can boast.

Going forward, having our own independent stealthy strike capability will be worth its weight in gold for us.

 

[KevinB]

Zooming in on Google maps, you can see that there appears to be a LOT of ships and ship parts being built concurrently in their yard.

That said, I only see one possible warship (based on the flight deck and gray paint) and just west of where that ship is tied up you can see what might be some round sections of submarine hulls being assembled outdoors. My suspicion is that the building directly above where those sections are laid out is the submarine assembly hall, and based on size, it looks like they can build 3 subs at once. Maybe.

Or my interpretation of the imagery is completely wrong.

They own a lot more than just that area. About 1,500m SE of the AOPS type vessel there are two fairly unusual vessels being assembled that look like some odd sort of surface arsenal ship as well. Grey hull and no windows with odd shaping on the super structure.

My iPhone doesn’t offer decent resolution, but my MacBook shows them in phenomenal detail and I wish I knew how to take screen captures with it.

 

[HavokFour]

My iPhone doesn’t offer decent resolution, but my MacBook shows them in phenomenal detail and I wish I knew how to take screen captures with it.

Shift>Command>3: Fullscreen capture.

Shift>Command>4: Select an area to capture.

Shift>Command>5: Opens the screenshot menu for more options.

 

[KevinB]

Shift>Command>3: Fullscreen capture.

Shift>Command>4: Select an area to capture.

Shift>Command>5: Opens the screenshot menu for more options.

Thank you very much, very helpful.

OFC now I think I have ID'd them as LNG carriers.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Found this report from the Defense Report website that compares the two contenders for the CPSP and comes out in favour of the U212CD vs the KS-111 B2.

Personally I thought that the author had a bias for the TKMS U212CD vs the KS-III. The biggest one is that he praises the U212CD against the KS-III, but forgets one big factor: Hanwha just launched their first KS-III B2 submarine, the same boat they plan on selling to Canada, The TKMS, on the other hand is still a paper dragon.

** Just to honest I have my own bias in favour of the Hanwha;s KS-III

Enjoy

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I am biased to the KS-III as well, but either way we win. But we will win sooner with the Koreans and win in the future as well.

 

[YZT580]

I am biased to the KS-III as well, but either way we win. But we will win sooner with the Koreans and win in the future as well.

Why the discussion? With Korea you have an active fleet in 10 years and complete delivery in 15. That is a full 20 years before the German offer can make a meaningful contribution to defense. I mean 1 boat for 3 coasts for 5 years before the second appears.

 

[Lumber]

When it comes to it's capabilities, we have to think about wear these subs will potentially operate in an actual conflict scenario. If NATO goes to war with Russia, well then they are likely needed in the Atlantic. If NATO/CAN-US goes to war with China, will we really be participating in the big fight in the Pacific, or will we play back-stop in the Atlantic for American forces that have been shifted west? Do we need a strike/ASuW capability if all we're doing is protecting the Flemish Cap?

 

[Czech_pivo]

When it comes to it's capabilities, we have to think about wear these subs will potentially operate in an actual conflict scenario. If NATO goes to war with Russia, well then they are likely needed in the Atlantic. If NATO/CAN-US goes to war with China, will we really be participating in the big fight in the Pacific, or will we play back-stop in the Atlantic for American forces that have been shifted west? Do we need a strike/ASuW capability if all we're doing is protecting the Flemish Cap?

I feel that in a Russian - NATO conflict, the Atlantic and the Baltic will quickly become NATO bathtub.
I think that our subs will be needed to help the Americans deal with the Russians in the Pacific, off the coast of Japan, since we and the US will have the only NATO assets in the Pacific.

 

[PHughes]

Found this report from the Defense Report website that compares the two contenders for the CPSP and comes out in favour of the U212CD vs the KS-111 B2.

Personally I thought that the author had a bias for the TKMS U212CD vs the KS-III. The biggest one is that he praises the U212CD against the KS-III, but forgets one big factor: Hanwha just launched their first KS-III B2 submarine, the same boat they plan on selling to Canada, The TKMS, on the other hand is still a paper dragon.

** Just to honest I have my own bias in favour of the Hanwha;s KS-III

Enjoy

The first Type 212 CD had its keel laid in 2023, is approx 80% complete and on schedule for a 2029 delivery

 

[Lumber]

I feel that in a Russian - NATO conflict, the Atlantic and the Baltic will quickly become NATO bathtub.
I think that our subs will be needed to help the Americans deal with the Russians in the Pacific, off the coast of Japan, since we and the US will have the only NATO assets in the Pacific.

You don't think Korea, Japan, and Australia would "keep an eye" on the Pacific for the Americans while they're occupied? You don't think that if a Canadian sub showed up that those three wouldn't say "uhh... no thanks, we know these waters a LOT better than you."

 

[Nvlgzr]

Noah of True North Strategic Review has a discussion about both subs; Let's talk with Noah (10/27/25): Is either Sub technically better? Orcas, Fighter Review, P-8 Update

 

[Czech_pivo]

You don't think Korea, Japan, and Australia would "keep an eye" on the Pacific for the Americans while they're occupied? You don't think that if a Canadian sub showed up that those three wouldn't say "uhh... no thanks, we know these waters a LOT better than you."

Very well could be but they may not get involved in a shooting war and the US may ‘ask’ us to give them a hand.