Replacing the Subs

[Czech_pivo]

Ok, I not a big fan of that timeline. Also why does it seems that they're already trying to cut down the number.

'Sigh' I'm not trying to be one of those people that goes auto 'liberals don't do anything to actually help the arm forces' but this is not picturing a good image of them.

I don't think they are 'cutting down the number' - its a negotiation tactic. If your seller knows that for certain you're going to buy 12, then they price their product for 12. If they think that you might buy 12 depending on the overall price, then they price it in your favour to buy 12. Think of the sales that you see at the store - buy 5 and get 1 free. So if you buy 10, you get 2 free. That's a normal marketing tactic.

 

[PrairieFella]

I think we can cut the doomerism. The 212CD will be one of the stealthiest hunter-killers on Earth. Now I thought that it would be cool to go Korean but either way Canada has a far more lethal navy and by FOC will be a global leader in modern sub warfare. Im very very curious to see what TKMS offered for industrial benefits behind closed doors to lead to this outcome. Either way, its a good day for Canada.

 

[DBNSG]

I think the likelihood of a Gripen purchase has gone down substantially with this announcement, giving Europe a big win.

I predict an announcement that LM will get the remaining 88.

Yup especially as the American AmbASSador had two of them fly over Ottawa on July 4.

 

[DBNSG]

The RCN and the RNN? (Royal Norwegian Navy) will have alot of 'plug and play' in the future. Both will have the Type 26 and now the Type 212CD. That's alot of overlap.

And F -35's and P-8's.

 

[Nvlgzr]

Yup especially as the American AmbASSador had two of them fly over Ottawa on July 4.

I understood that flyover (including CF18’s) was orchestrated by Canada

 

[OldTanker]

Statistically I won't be around to see the delivery of the first of the 212s, but I might just make a greater effort to live longer to see if a. any Canadian government will really carry through with this and not take the easy way out, cancel once Trump is gone and pay the penalties or b. they cheap out and buy a fraction of the 12. A good reason to keep healthy just to watch this unfold. Please excuse the cynicism. The curse of being a cold warrior.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I think we can cut the doomerism. The 212CD will be one of the stealthiest hunter-killers on Earth. Now I thought that it would be cool to go Korean but either way Canada has a far more lethal navy and by FOC will be a global leader in modern sub warfare. Im very very curious to see what TKMS offered for industrial benefits behind closed doors to lead to this outcome. Either way, its a good day for Canada.

We'll get a far more lethal navy IF and only IF all the boats are delivered.

 

[Czech_pivo]

We'll get a far more lethal navy IF and only IF all the boats are delivered.

Can anyone put a call into Moscow or Beijing and ask them next summer to pop a nuc boat just outside our waters in the Arctic?

 

[PrairieFella]

We'll get a far more lethal navy IF and only IF all the boats are delivered.

Ill allow myself to be optimistic for 10 mins

 

[MilEME09]

Can anyone put a call into Moscow or Beijing and ask them next summer to pop a nuc boat just outside our waters in the Arctic?

Or two

 

[Czech_pivo]

Here’s the unofficial new moniker for this Tripartite

NoCanDeu

 

[Czech_pivo]

We'll get a far more lethal navy IF and only IF all the boats are delivered.

That would include the 15 Rivers and 16-20 CDC’s.

I’d hate to see 3 Rivers, 12-15 CDC’s and 6 Type 212CD’s…..

Hello 1996, nice to see you again.

 

[ArmyRick]

I think we can cut the doomerism

We are getting new subs, period. Awesome. 4-5 years ago new subs were not even a thought. Your right, its a win.

We'll get a far more lethal navy IF and only IF all the boats are delivered.

Fingers crossed that Canada doesn't "Canada" this (Like the Merlin choppers)

 

[Cloud Cover]

I think we can cut the doomerism. The 212CD will be one of the stealthiest hunter-killers on Earth. Now I thought that it would be cool to go Korean but either way Canada has a far more lethal navy and by FOC will be a global leader in modern sub warfare. Im very very curious to see what TKMS offered for industrial benefits behind closed doors to lead to this outcome. Either way, its a good day for Canada.

I think the loss of the vls tubes is a bit of a disappointment. The US is no longer producing torpedo tube launch variants of the Tomahawk.
If the ability to launch cruise missiles is still desired, we’lll be going with a European cruise missile. Also fine, but that means the RCN will stock 3 cruise missiles all different specs and capabilities. Also fine, but a data point - again - if and only life the RCN remains interested in the sub fleet having that type of strike capability.

Outside of that, I had thought the KSS was a lock. They certainly spared no expense and made every conceivable effort other than a try and buy.

Quite skeptical the RCN will see a TKMS boat by 2034, never mind 4 boats. With South Korea it would be a loss of business face and much cultural shame to miss an agreed customer deadline. Germany, I fear, could care less provided it doesn’t cost them penalties.

 

[Swampbuggy]

Here’s the unofficial new moniker for this Tripartite

NoCanDeu

Yeah, that’s much better than Gercanway…

 

[Cloud Cover]

That would include the 15 Rivers and 16-20 CDC’s.

I’d hate to see 3 Rivers, 12-15 CDC’s and 6 Type 212CD’s…..

Hello 1996, nice to see you again.

Ouch Ouch Ouch.

 

[PrairieFella]

I think the loss of the vls tubes is a bit of a disappointment. The US is no longer producing torpedo tube launch variants of the Tomahawk.
If the ability to launch cruise missiles is still desired, we’lll be going with a European cruise missile. Also fine, but that means the RCN will stock 3 cruise missiles all different specs and capabilities. Also fine, but a data point - again - if and only life the RCN remains interested in the sub fleet having that type of strike capability.

Outside of that, I had thought the KSS was a lock. They certainly spared no expense and made every conceivable effort other than a try and buy.

Quite skeptical the RCN will see a TKMS boat by 2034, never mind 4 boats. With South Korea it would be a loss of business face and much cultural shame to miss an agreed customer deadline. Germany, I fear, could care less provided it doesn’t cost them penalties.

If Im not mistaken those Euro missiles are the NSM which will be used on our destroyers, right? Im no naval munitions guy.

 

[Cloud Cover]

If Im not mistaken those Euro missiles are the NSM which will be used on our destroyers, right? Im no naval munitions guy.

Yes, NSM but more likely to be “it’s in development” successor the Supersonic Strike Missile which supposedly is set to outperform NSM on every metric. I would like to think the RCN - if SL missiles are indeed still desirable - would opt for a longer range missile.

 

[Underway]

TKMS has a vertical launch system they developed and are willing to fit it into a submarine if we asked. We didn't ask.

As for timelines PM said 4 by 34. TKMS CEO stated first delivery 2033.

However Germany and Norway were both reported to be willing to give up one of their own subs in the production line if Canada joined the club.

I suspect the difference is that the PM is speaking with a country to country deal in mind and the CEO is speaking strictly from the bid and build program. The CEO can't speak to whether Germany would give Canada one of its submarines.

As far as other timelines, Noah had a great post on substack pointing out that TKMS is going to use their investments in Canada to accelerate their builds as they can expand multiple different aspects of sub tech/manufacturing here that they can't do in Germany. Like battery production, torp production and non magnetic steel production (which they apparently have limited ability to do in Germany).

Some of those are likely critical path steps in the project timelines (wait for more steel to be produced before they can get on with the next sub...).

 

[HavokFour]

TKMS has a vertical launch system they developed and are willing to fit it into a submarine if we asked. We didn't ask.

Could that be something that gets brought up again in negotiations?