Reservists on Tour - selfish.

[IPC10]

Time to paraphrase:

Shock and awe â “ original post intended to piss everyone off worked.

Fully acknowledge what it really is to be a reservist (talking about the people who contribute as normally full time civilians and then add the military side â “ twice the citizen one pam said).

Question remains â “ do any reservists above the rank of Cpl feel there is any professional obligation on their part to make the same level of sacrifice that they would have to for an overseas deployment to give their operational experience to the training system outside of their home unit?

I know it's not the same â “ no medals, no tour money on the surface, no new challenges and experiences (which is a big part of why people join IMHO).  But knowing that the training system is so short of pers that we have to keep hitting the field force â “ is there any feeling on the armoury floors that this is something that as leaders of all levels they should look at, making this sacrifice?  Not talking about the Class B call out as a source of income; rather hey I'm going to take a semester off school to work at a area training center/CTC cause I have something valuable that I can pass on?  That you're going to make the same level of sacrifice to your job/family/regular life that you would to go overseas to help out those who will go after you.

 

[X Royal]

  Not talking about the Class B call out as a source of income; rather hey I'm going to take a semester off school to work at a area training center/CTC cause I have something valuable that I can pass on?   That you're going to make the same level of sacrifice to your job/family/regular life that you would to go overseas to help out those who will go after you.

So the reservist is a student. Let realality kick in - most NCO'S in the reserves (those who would be instructors) are no longer students but people with families, responsibilities & jobs. Its not taking a semester off of school but quiting a job a possiblly shuting future doors.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Question remains do any reservists above the rank of Cpl feel there is any professional obligation on their part to make the same level of sacrifice that they would have to for an overseas deployment to give their operational experience to the training system outside of their home unit?

So now you expect them to take a third year off their regular job, a third vacation away from their family on top of what they've already given?

It does happen BTW. I returned from Roto 0 in Feb, completed my leave in March and was instructor at WATC from May-July then returned to Ontario and Pet as an O/C in Aug. After doing the GWagon T the T course in Borden at the beginning of Aug.

So yeah, we do do it. I'm not an anomaly, in the system. That's your answer, and this is getting close to the bashing and bullshit meter. Dress it up how you want it, but everything you've posted in this thread is just a cheap shot against the Reserves, and unless you do a real good job of explaining exactly what your motive is, it's going to get binned in that same bucket of hypocrisy and bitterness that they all end up in.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Someone tell me that the average reservist who wants a tour isn't doing it for the gong, or the money, or the experience

You got me to a tee on All three points.   And, I sacrificed a hell of a lot earning all three of those, more than you ever have, or for that matter ever will.

Now go shock and awe your cribbage team, instead of us.

dileas

tess

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
I know it's not the same â “ no medals, no tour money on the surface, no new challenges and experiences (which is a big part of why people join IMHO). 

Damn, I knew I wasted that 10 years of my life..... :

 

[Dissident]

Reserviste are hampered in their efforts to be instructor or students on course by the very nature of the system.

Booking time off is not always easy for your civy job. Unbooking time off can be regarded very negatively, especially if you do it repeadedly.

Rare are troops who can make themselved available on the short time fuse that is usually the SOP for summer tasking/courses.

This has been discussed with much more detail and clarity, by much more knowledgeble people in another thread somewhere on here.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Shock and awe â “ original post intended to piss everyone off worked.

Good job Troll.

Now go shock and awe your cribbage team, instead of us.

dileas

tess

here here.

Question remains â “ do any reservists....

Heres a question - Do people who post here with the intention of pissing off other posters on purpose deserve a serious response?

 

[Infanteer]

:boring:

I think there was something interesting to discuss here, but the delivery and subsequent follow up sucked ass.

signed,
Selfish Prick

 

[Spanky]

Part of what he sees as a problem can be explained this way.  An employee of a civvie company can only go to the well so often with requests for time off.  Is the reservist going to go to their boss every summer with requests for time off?  Not likely, considering that is prime vacation time for the other employees as well.  Can they go to their employer and get an entire year off to go on a tour, likely a one time thing?  More likely, considering the employer knows it's for a full year and can adjust accordingly.  The experience and training the reservist gets on the tour is not wasted.  It is used on the armoury floor on a continual basis.

 

[downinOZ]

In the three training centres I was employed at after a tour, and the one year of training nights and exercises at my unit, plus the two years of training nights and exercises at a unit I was attached to, I noticed the majority of instructors who were teaching reserves were reservists.  For focus' sake, let's not discuss the value of weekend BMQ and SQ courses.  How many reg force personnel had a hand in those courses?  Most of the RSS staff, I think, but not too much more (no Btns in BC and Sask, and at CFSME, reservists did driving, enemy force, course admin, and had responsibility for other aspects of Mil-Occ training).  Isn't that part of the commitment in getting a posting to a reserve unit?  What kinds of positions is the army generally in short supply of?  Clerks?  Supply?  Not exactly the testosterone-filled challenge I was looking for when I joined.  I can't comment on the officer side, except that I only had one platoon/troop commander who was reg force.  Our unit DCO (RSS), who organized a QL2/QL3 engineer course, was excellent to work for, and made working above what was required well worth the effort, by working as hard as we did, and supporting our training.  Very professional.  All the section commanders had previous tour experience.  I would say that my peers in the engineers who have had tours have definitely put back into the training of other reservists.  I worked with an infantry regiment for two years, and don't remember a single troop going without a summer tasking, if they could afford the time to do so.  I remember troops begging to go on field force, course staff, even support tasks.  The NCO's, including me, made a big deal about the benefits of those taskings and that was embraced by those troops - a driver wheel course, and then a two month tasking - field training, and name goes to top for consideration for recce courses, etc...  Maybe your experience was with a very selfish unit - lots of university students who joined the reserves for a hobby/to eat/fun/patriotic-regimental loyalty, and continued their hobby/fun/patriotic-regimental duty while pursuing their career.  A tour provides experiences for a reservist that still transfer into their civilian life on a regular basis - appreciation of green grass that YOU CAN WALK ON, respect for conflict resolution WITHOUT A GUN, continuing belief that Canada is a good place to live and worth contributing to - doctor, teacher, parent etc...

I am glad that you recognised the competition aspect of being selected to go to work-up training towards a tour.  It's been discussed elsewhere that the best soldiers are not always the available soldiers.  My experience was that at the end of the tour, telling the difference between a reservist and reg force pers was ...difficult at best.  Who loses on that one?  And which was the bigger loss, if there was a loss?  6 months back in the training system for a reservist?  What about running unit and regional courses?  What about deploying on two-week exercises?  What about instructing/filling vacancies at Schools (RETS), or the comms schools, or as mentioned before, on a weekly/weekend basis?  Advancement is an opportunity.  It's sad to see an officer who views advancement as something that in the reserves, just happens (haven't seen too many acting-lacking in reserve world).  And not to belittle anyone who doesn't, but there is definitely a level of respect for those who walk around three or four times a year with some hardware on their chest.  According to principles of leadership, seeking advancement/responsibility leads to better development of self and others around you.  And I would argue that somewhere down the track, one reservist who teaches on three or four courses and spreads his/her experience and knowledge makes up for the opportunity afforded them by being on a tour.  One reservist who is able to instruct some skill learned during work-up training at least exposes other soldiers to that skill, which they otherwise, wouldn't receive.  Ambush drills while in a truck?  Not sure if that's in BMQ/SQ yet.  Current doctrine on route-proving/camp security?  Hmmm, haven't heard of that one being introduced and updated.  Someone else can address that.  Units wouldn't be exposed, wouldn't even LOOK like they have an inkling if that training wasn't passed on from tour personnel. 
Chimo.

 

[Craig B]

Selfishness , eh ?

Well , let me see . When I was a young Gunner in the mid 1980's I was willing to go on tours . But there were no tours except CFE ( 2 guys every decade or so ) plus Cyprus ( 4 guys every decade , be prepared to do lots of GD ) . Regular Force didn't really want Militia guys taking _their_ jobs .

Years went by , got married , had kids and got a full time job .

All of a sudden , lots of tours . Yugo , Haiti etc .

Guess what ?

I couldn't go , had responsibilities .

Tours continue . Reg's short of manpower . All of a sudden Militia guys are wanted .

Where were the tours when I needed them ?

Too little , too late .

Craig

 

[KevinB]

Craig,

Looking at your post all I see is the "me me me" attitude that the poster mentioned intiailly.

I have a family - a son, and an ex wife.  I don't see anyone (specifically) in the regs whinning that tours are too awkward for us?

 

[48Highlander]

Craig,

Looking at your post all I see is the "me me me" attitude that the poster mentioned intiailly.

I have a family - a son, and an ex wife.   I don't see anyone (specifically) in the regs whinning that tours are too awkward for us?

You're not going to screw up your career by going on tour.  For a reserveist, THAT is the hardest aspect of going on tour.  Very few employers would be willing to wait a year for you to get back.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Craig,

Looking at your post all I see is the "me me me" attitude that the poster mentioned intiailly.

I have a family - a son, and an ex wife.   I don't see anyone (specifically) in the regs whinning that tours are too awkward for us?

Kevin is right, here.  I had to laugh when I read that post - saying reservists are not selfish and then complaining about how the Army isn't serving up tours on a platter was just plain funny.

Again, I'll reiterate what I said in the other thread.  The Army doesn't exist just so guys can go on six month tours, regular or reserve.  I don't understand where all this sense of entitlement comes from - I guess we really are a reflection of society. The Army should have bigger goals than just sending individuals on tours. 

Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country...

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Asking why you have no tours which is largely politics and world events is a little silly don't you think.

Kev I'll let you know how many vacancies there are after the DAG do to guys pussing out.

 

[KevinB]

Don't get me wrong I KNOW there are many selfish reg force people - you should have seen as soons as the tax break for Afghan came out...


You'd have thought that they exumed crypts the way some people you'd thought got out years ago under covered some rock and made incredible pains to get on the tours...


Edit IF they got the damn TF crap canned units could then acquire and train the reservists they need on an AS NEEDED basis...

I think they should offer Class C contracts for reservists a year at a time to keep reg Bn's at full strenght and then give extension (if the reservists want) if the unit goes on tour.  As well steamline the CT provisions for reservist ont he class C for seamless integration into the regs...

 

[Aries]

I honestly think that if the reservists are real hardcore and love giving so much to the betterment of the forces, why not join the Regs?

I just can't wrap my mind around it, if your already willing to leave they're families and sacrifice holidays, then why not do it full time?
Don't cry when some people who do it every day and knew the risks and still do it every day act a little hostile.

I take it a little personally, because i did all the work up training and mission specific stuff for the TAT going to kandahar last april. And three of us reg force privates got bumped for three reserve privates.

I don't know about any other units, but here at CFJoint Signal Regiment, it happens all the time....in fact it's a condition of reservist contracts. You can imagine how many times i've seen a good to go reg get subbed for one of these "filler" reserve types.

It's aggravating to no end!

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I honestly think that if the reservists are real hardcore and love giving so much to the betterment of the forces, why not join the Regs?

I just can't wrap my mind around it, if your already willing to leave they're families and sacrifice holidays, then why not do it full time?
Don't cry when some people who do it every day and knew the risks and still do it every day act a little hostile.

It's not the lifestyle they want, that's why.  If a guy has a civvie career he really loves, why would he want to join a peacetime Army and do three years of stuff he has no interest in, or do three years without earning a pension?  It's not that tough to figure out.  If dude wants to sharpen skates for a living, and is drawing a pension as a skate sharpener, why would he give it up for a three year BE and not accumulate any pensionable time?  Or join the regs for 20 years and do something he doesn't like as much?

How tough is that to understand, really?

 

[Infanteer]

I think they should offer Class C contracts for reservists a year at a time to keep reg Bn's at full strenght and then give extension (if the reservists want) if the unit goes on tour.   As well steamline the CT provisions for reservist ont he class C for seamless integration into the regs...

That's one of the best suggestions I've seen yet.

I honestly think that if the reservists are real hardcore and love giving so much to the betterment of the forces, why not join the Regs?

Ok, I'll give you my story - I went on a tour because it was offered.  I liked my part-time job, thought I was pretty decent at it, and made the cut.  When it was done, I had to get back to school and finish up.  Sound plausible.

There are many reasons that a guy may not want to come Reg - I've seen them all.  Perhaps his spouse has the better job.  Perhaps HE has a better job (CEO or something).  Maybe he is a cop, and he'll be putting on the spurs as soon as he returns from his duty overseas.  Perhaps he is a reg force guy with 3 tours and he got into the reserves after getting out, and felt like taking another crack at things.

Irregardless of reasons, there are some good guys in the reserves, and most stick their hand up when the C-of-C asks for help.  It is politicians and generals making the decision on how to employ the Reserves, so don't shoot at the guys at the bottom for volunteering when asked.

 

[Sig_Des]

When taskings and tours come in, I put my name in for them..I'd like the experience of a tour...

now, I've put my name in for a couple of tours, most recently ROTO 86 to DANACA...didn't get it, and that's fine...but I don't go around blanketing the chain with memos hunting for tours...

If they ask who's interested in going, sure I'll say yes...but I'm not crying because somebody else got it, whether it be reg or res.

I personally don't know any Res guys who sit in a back room rubbing their hands together scheming about how to bump a reg force guy of his tour. Keep in mind that us "toons" or "rentals" as some of you call us, ARE an integral part of the forces, and it's nice for that to be noted, as opposed to "Those damned reservists taking our jobs"

now, offering class C contracts for a year at a time to keep reg Bn's at full strenght, absolutely, I would put my name in...a lot of us want to be used in a rewarding manner, be it tour, tasking, or instructor..and please don't just pigeon-hole all of us as a bunch of snivelling, tour-coveting babies..

Keep in mind that ALL soldiers b****, not just reservists...