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Retain the Monarchy in Canada?

Should we retain the monarchy?


  • Total voters
    133
Infanteer said:
3) In the great effort of compromise, move to a system that repatriates our Head-of-State as an acceptable and effective agent of Constitutional duties and responsibilities while at the same time seeking to preserve our tradition of Parliamentary Democracy which advocates loyalty to something above the political body.

I would choose this option over a republic. I also think many Canadian will choose this option if lets say:

- King Charles acts like his son Harry (which he has done a bit in the past)
- A growing resentment in Canada over the Monarchy
- Britain abolishes the Monarchy
- Australia and New Zealand abolish the Monarchy

As we all know, when her majesty dies, much debate will arise over our current system. Many Canadians, (from my knowledge) are a bit anti American, and wouldnt except a republic. Also, organizations with "Royal" in their title wouldnt be pleased to see change. I think Infanteers choice of number three is inevitable, and only a matter of time.

Do not mistake me for being a anti monarchist. I am one of the many British descendants on this country who enjoys seeing our decorative traditions (RCMP, Regiments, Legion, ect.) We cannot ignore our history and heritage, because it sustains our identity.
 
So you're saying that without a Monarchy we would not have an identity????? I don't think it matters one iota. When we go anywhere in the world, when people say, look, those are Canadian soldiers......I am pretty sure that a light doesn't click on and they automatically think of the Royal Family.  I think what the they think is that, whoa, there is a professional soldier who comes from a top notch country that is better than this s**thole that I am living in. They are over here helping us, that have to be good.

My 2 cents!
 
CHIMO!!!!! said:
So you're saying that without a Monarchy we would not have an identity????? I don't think it matters one iota. When we go anywhere in the world, when people say, look, those are Canadian soldiers......I am pretty sure that a light doesn't click on and they automatically think of the Royal Family.    I think what the they think is that, whoa, there is a professional soldier who comes from a top notch country that is better than this s**thole that I am living in. They are over here helping us, that have to be good.

My 2 cents!

I mean the symbols (uniforms, flags, mottos, history, traditions, ect)

As for the men, im not sure. Judging by the responses on this thread, it seems quite divided.
 
Well I won't argue with infanteer's presentation as it was very well thought out and written.

As for any of the above choices...maybe 3 is inevitable. Definitely not in Queen Elizabeth's life time (long may she reign). I'm not even going to suggest it may happen in Charles or Williams time.

But it will probably happen. All things must come to an end.

So I'll just sit back and enjoy the way things work right now. Because quite honestly, if it ain't broke? Why fix it.

I'm really not into any kind of reveloution right now, and I enjoy the pomp and circumstance. Although I must say that considering how well most of our forces marches, its embarrassing to watch.

And besides? If we got rid of it, who would we have to look up to? Who would be march for, and wear pretty regimental uniforms for? Martin? Any PM? Chaaa...  ...right. We're to cynical a people to fall mindlessly into the American form of blind patriotism.
 
The key thing about the Head of State, or a Symbol of State, is that it does not symbolize the current government or petty politics of the day, but all of us. The crown on many capbadges, the Royal Cypher EIIR (or the Imperial Cypher VRI for my regiment) are ways of telling people that we are not merely tools of the current govenment but that we stand and are willing to die for the nation (NOT the government). In the United States, although the President is both the head of government and Head of State, the abiding symbol is the Constitution, and everyone from the President on down swear to uphold the Constitution.

This is actually one of the oldest traditions there is, in ancient times oaths were sworn directly to the gods, or to the various Kings and Emporors who embodies the gods authority here on Earth. Even in ancient democracies, oaths were to the gods, not the assemblies, and various religious symbols served as standards in battle.

In some future Canada, we may have ditched the monarchy, but people will still look for an enduring symbol which represents them and their conception of themselves or their ideals. What symbol is chosen will speak volumes of what sort of people Canadians have become.
 
I know! The Beaver!


Moose?


A Hockey Stick?


Clean water?


Snowflake?


This could go on...        ...anyway.

Dam it Majoor, your far to eloquent at these things. And I find I am agreeing with your statements on far to many threads.
 
a_majoor said:
The key thing about the Head of State, or a Symbol of State, is that it does not symbolize the current government or petty politics of the day, but all of us. The crown on many capbadges, the Royal Cypher EIIR (or the Imperial Cypher VRI for my regiment) are ways of telling people that we are not merely tools of the current govenment but that we stand and are willing to die for the nation (NOT the government). In the United States, although the President is both the head of government and Head of State, the abiding symbol is the Constitution, and everyone from the President on down swear to uphold the Constitution.

This is actually one of the oldest traditions there is, in ancient times oaths were sworn directly to the gods, or to the various Kings and Emporors who embodies the gods authority here on Earth. Even in ancient democracies, oaths were to the gods, not the assemblies, and various religious symbols served as standards in battle.

In some future Canada, we may have ditched the monarchy, but people will still look for an enduring symbol which represents them and their conception of themselves or their ideals. What symbol is chosen will speak volumes of what sort of people Canadians have become.

Which is why I said....

Infanteer said:
All States need a symbol.  In the US, the symbol is the Constitution of the United States of America (which sprung from the principles of the Declaration of Independence) for which the Government is charged to uphold and maintain.  In Canada, our enduring symbol has been the Crown, where all loyalty is focused.  The problem is that the Crown is held by a monarchy which has managed to stick around despite going out of style over a century ago.

:D

I believe that "the Crown" can be equally or more effective as a symbol if it is held by a Canadian "Elder Statesmen" rather then worn by some European who lucked out and happens to have the last name of Windsor....

 
I believe that "the Crown" can be equally or more effective as a symbol if it is held by a Canadian "Elder Statesmen" rather then worn by some European who lucked out and happens to have the last name of Windsor....

OK Infanteer, let's chill out a little on this one.

I support your general premise, as I said earlier its a good idea.   I also said that I was not quite sure that I agreed with the timeline.   I think it is a desireable end-state once Canada becomes a different Canada than it is today, the Canada the you wish it to become and the Canada that I, grudgingly, expect it to become. One that is less British.

One of the basic rules of leadership is never issue a command you don't expect to be followed.   You may be right to issue the command but there is a considerable loss of authority and credibility if your "followers" laugh in your face, or worse look for the nearest explosive device.    

The problem exists not only when all your "followers" disagree with you but even when a sizeable minority disagrees with you.   That results in conflict.   When the split is 50:50 on the national level then that is when civil wars occur. (No I am not predicting the Revolt of the Cavaliers, The Sequel).  

In this I believe Trudeau had something of it right when asked what he would do about the Governor-General he responded "Nothing.   Let it fade away to irrelevance".   Unfortunately he was right and it has been a winning strategy for the Republicans.   But he was right to recognize that without active support it would become irrelevant and naturally disappear from the Canadian consciousness.   The alternative was to rile a very large portion of the population.   You are too young to remember it, and I was too late to see it but folks like ROJ remember the Flag Debate well and its successor debate over removing the Royal Cipher from mail boxes and the prefix Her Majesty's.....from Government Departments and correspondence.   Those moves, as much as any, poisoned the attitude of many Anglo-Canadians of those days to Trudeau and Quebec.   Many of them were veterans that had proudly served Her Majesty's father as Canadians.  

Many of those veterans and their offspring still feel strongly about the Monarchy and the numbers suggest that anything from 25 to 50% of the population stil have some attachment to the Monarchy.   Forcing the issue at this time is not likely to play to the advantage of any political party, or IMHO the country at large.

That is why I suggest that while your end-state is an acceptable end-state for this tradition-loving Britophile Monarchist, I don't think that it is a desireable state at this time.   Now in 25 years or so it may be a different matter - my kids certainly have not strong attachment to Britain, that could have something to do with the fact that my Franco-Canuck wife keeps bringing up the ruddy Acadians ( ;D "Don't mention the war.....").    So in your lifetime you will probably find a move towards your point of view.  

I am glad to see that you value symbols as reminders of history and what has brought us to this point.   If those that forget history are doomed to repeat it then we should constantly strive to remind ourselves of the conficts that have been resolved on the route to the present.   Those resolved conflicts, power struggles, have resulted in our modern institutions and thus have given us the tools to resolve and defuse modern conflicts.

As to the Royals as being "lucky Europeans" you are missing the point about the Royals entirely here.

The Royals are a symbol.   Their power devolves not from legislation, force or even luck.   Their power devolves from something much more fundamental.   Blood.

They are a symbol of racial connectivity.   They work hard to be able to trace their genealogy and maintain, not their purity, but their genetic connectivity.

You and I have had a discussion about "Blood and Belief". Some would argue that one is irrational and the other is rational.   That one appeals to the heart the other the mind.   That an attachment to blood-lines, to race, to tribe, to clan, to family is irrational.   But it exists, just ask the Quebecers.   And time does not prevent people remembering.

The entire history of the modern world and western liberalism, the rise of Prebyterianism, through the Enlightenment has been a struggle on the part of the rationalists to over-ride those heart-felt blood-ties with rational appeals to something greater.   A common belief.   Common beliefs have been common in the past and have been used to bring disparate bloodlines together.   Generally these are beliefs in a God or a form of worship.   The common belief that the rationalists have tried to proclaim, and it has found many adherents, especially amongst the academics of the world is rationalism itself.   The belief that forswears belief and believes itself to be without beliefs and thus "pure".

The French, believing themselves to be the ultimate expositors of the "Enlightenment", largely in reaction to all the nastiness associated with the European wars of religious belief where the populace was whipped up to support power-seeking individuals by appealing to their religious beliefs, believe that they have no beliefs. That they are rational individuals that eschew any belief at all.   Thus they believe in the state religion of "laicete", or no god-centred religion.

The Americans and the modern British state however spring from the Scottish Enlightenment.   An enlightenment that sought to find the role for man in God's world and ended up promoting the individual,   individual responsibility, charity begins at home, the acceptability of earning a profit, the desire to use science to find God's plan but the need to accede to God's good graces and look after the disadvantaged.   If only in enlightened self-interest. It accepted the individual, blood and God as necessary ingredients to make their society work.

While the Scottish Enlightenment led to America, the French Enlightenment led to Marx.   These two Enlightened views are at the heart of the modern conflicts between Progressives and Conservatives.

Now these days, while many Brits, both in Canada and in Britain have turned more towards a French world view likewise many non-Brits both in Canada and around the world have converted to more of a Scottish view.   I would argue that the Poles, for example, clearly fall into that category.

These two camps will rally around their symbols.   In the past Brits that shared the Scottish view, a majority of Canadian Brits, found those symbols in the Crown and the living symbol of the Royals.   These days those types of Canadians constitute a diminishing population but as noted many non-Brits share a similar view.   These people, although finding no attachment to the British blood lines, do find themselves attached to British philosophy.   For them perhaps the Crown, as a symbol of the well-spring of their beliefs could be considered acceptable.

Another way to bridge the divide historically has been through inter-marriage, to incorporate other relevant blood-lines into the living symbol.   Using traditional logic one solution for Canada would be for one of the Royals to take up permanent residence in Canada and become part of the fabric of Canadian society, not necessarily in an authority position like the GG but just as a private citizen who takes part in public life like any other notable private citizen.   That person's heir would then marry a suitable Canadian of well recognized blood lines in the community - it could be a pure laine Quebecoise or a Native woman or a Hindu or Muslim or Chinese woman.   Other heirs would confirm the web of blood and tie the families together in one family and create a Nation in the sense that the Unenlightened world understands it.

The Quebecers have that right.   Country, Nation and State are three different things.   Canada has the geography that defines it as a country.   It has a government that defines it as a state.   But it does not have the unity of bloodlines that define it, in the traditional sense as a Nation.

Our ruling classes are trying to get us beyond that sense of Nation and create something different, in that sense they are trying to accomplish the same as the Americans, a Nation that defines itself not by blood but by belief.

Perhaps they will succeed.   Canadians more and more are defining themselves by belief and not by blood.   But they are not united in those beliefs.

In the meantime Lord Durham's words of 1837 are still valid. Canada is still  "two Nations warring within the bosom of a single State".   Although in those days those Nations defined themselves by blood.   These days there are many more bloodlines capable of defining themselves as Nations.   These days we see not just divisions amongst Nations that define themselves by blood but also between Nations that define themselves by belief.

To remove the monarchs at this time, rather than letting them fade gracefully, or even potentially enjoy a natural resurgence, would only exacerbate divisions in a State that already has too many fault lines.

Sermon ends. ;)

Cheers. ;D
 
Kirkhill taking bow,

And that's with no beer.... ;D
 
I don't know about being patriotic for the queen ...but when she came it cost us MILLIONS...the governor general burns our money...and she has no real power...the prime minister can change her whenever he wants...

In WW1 we sent 600 000 men for england...and in return they said " maybe you will get your independence"

besides the fancy face on the money... "rubbish !"


then again its my opinion..as a Quebecois and as a Canadian...

 
Holy cow...




...wow.

How long did it take you to not only write? But to gather your thoughts? Sheesh.

As for Agamemnon. Its ironic that you choose to disrespect the Monarchy and yet choose that alias. Ah well.

Wow again.

I find it strange while reading your post Kirkhill, that I agreed with both sides of the coin. I still very much identify with the British (Scottish) way of thinking and the monarchy. But in many ways, especially socially thinking, I identify very much with the philosophies of the French way of thinking.

I still respect tradition when it comes to symbols and our history, but I believe our way of government is following the right track when it comes to its social democratic views. Could it be that Canadians define themselves by this? And may be very much lost in the quagmire between the two?

I would also add a third nation in that mix. That of the Natives who very much identify themselves by blood lines.
 
Zipper i chose Agamemnon because Vandooze was taken  ;D

and your right i am  DISRESPECTING the monarchy but let me send that question right back to you...when has the MONARCHY respected US?!?

In 1899-1902 if i remember we waged war for them. :threat:
In WW1 we sent 600 000 men...out of what 10 million people?? India at the time had 350 million people and only sent 1 million men... :o


so wheres the respect? ???






 
Agamemnon said:
I don't know about being patriotic for the queen ...but when she came it cost us MILLIONS...the governor general burns our money...and she has no real power...the prime minister can change her whenever he wants...

In WW1 we sent 600 000 men for england...and in return they said " maybe you will get your independence"

besides the fancy face on the money... "rubbish !"


then again its my opinion..as a Quebecois and as a Canadian...
Please, study history

Canada became almost fullly independant in 1931, after WW1. We became fully independant in 1982, with our own constitution. As for the Queen visiting, it didnt cost as much as Mr Bush visiting Ottawa in the past months. Where ever Mr Bush travels, it cost millions. As for being a Quebecois, you seem to wish to have a special status in Canada, and i dont respect that.




 
Make sure you guys define what you mean by fully independent.  1867, 1931, and 1982 all have various meanings.

PS: Kirkhill, I'm still digesting your post (and preparing counter-battery fire  >:D).  It seem to remember it, but it made more sense over Guinness and animated gestures.... ;)
 
Agamemnon said:
Zipper i chose Agamemnon because Vandooze was taken   ;D

and your right i am   DISRESPECTING the monarchy but let me send that question right back to you...when has the MONARCHY respected US?!?

In 1899-1902 if i remember we waged war for them. :threat:
In WW1 we sent 600 000 men...out of what 10 million people?? India at the time had 350 million people and only sent 1 million men... :o


so wheres the respect? ???

Please, in 1899 to 1902 we assisted the British Army with as much material and men as they requested against the Boers in South Africa. Again another example of our poor education system, teaching the ignorant blasphemy.

Yes, your right on our WW1 numbers, but wrong on India's. India contributed 3 million men, and suffered a higher causulty rate than the Canadians. Also, you must consider this, 350 million being ruled by 100,000; not popular.

In World War one, Canadians enlisted for King and Empire. As for French Canadians, they didnt contribute as much as English Canadians, they were against the War, and against conscription. Although, Borden got his way by allowing women whos sons were on the front the right to vote, winning an election and passing through conscription, he destroyed Quebecs trust in the Conservative Party. Short term gain, for long term pain.

I am shocked how little some know of Canadian history. How can any person who dosnt know the facts, critisise the British. Christ being in the British Empire secured us from the Americans for over 100 years
 
Ask Kirkhill, he stocks those funny cans with the plastic balls inside....  :D
 
Hey we all have to make sacrifices for the good of the service, ect..  No Murphy's...I'm crushed.  I'm going to have to go out and find a pub here in Ottawa tonight.
 
Oh man, Ottawa? Pick up a beaver tail for me on the way to the local. Ottawa has some very decent pubs I must say. At least as compared to Edmonton.

I'm in agreement Canuck. The reason we went to war with (not for) England was because we were still very much a colony in many respects. So it was our duty to do so. Also, the King and Country thing was a major part of the equation.

As for the reasons above and beyond that. They are our friends and allies, and thus if our national policy meshes with their's, then your damned straight we went. And I'm sure we would again if called upon in similar circumstances.

Makes you wonder by the fact that we managed to send 600 000 out of 10 million, and we can't even afford 50 000 out of 32 million today. Sheesh.
 
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