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Retain the Monarchy in Canada?

Should we retain the monarchy?


  • Total voters
    133
" It really scares me on how some people on this forum, who are current members of our forces, are bashing our current system, the constitutional monarchy. It also is disturbing that these members think the current system is  not Canadian. I suggest you pack your bags and move down south. Im sure you support global warming too, whatever more makes it America"

so serving members don't have a say how their country should be run.  The current system we have is not Canadian its British.  Just like the monarchy is British and NOT CANADIAN.

We as canadians have to serious look at our system of gov't and work to get it changed.  Its old and out dated and hasn't worked right in years.  And dude I shouldn't have to move down south just because I think our old dated British system sucks.  It remminds of the Family of compact days when Canadians were pushing for changing and Our colonial leader were very happy with the system they had at the time.
 
gunner56 said:
Oh,well then.I guess you think our gov't isn't corrupt,eh? What about our illustrious PM registering his ships offshore to avoid paying taxes to the country he supposedly serves?What about our GovGen's spending habits?Oh,Did I mention Chretien's business dealings?
Gunner, might I point out that Adrienne Clarkson is the only head of state who had the decency and guts as Commander in Chief of any Armed Forces to spend the last several New Years with the troops in the FRY and Afghanistan?  Her husband John Ralston Saul has spent the last two New Year's Eves on patrol with the troops around Kabul, which is more than many of us in the CF, reg and reserve, likely did.  Compared to the politicos, our GG and her husband actually give a fuck about the troops those same politicos send out into harm's way with crappy gear on borrowed airplanes.  I'd rather have as CinC of the CF someone of her calibre than any political hack appointed or elected as President of this great nation of ours.  As to her supposed spendthrift ways, might I point at several past GGs (political hacks) who got away with a lot more crap and a lot less publicity.  I would much rather render the Vice-Regal salute to her than to any politician you'd care to name.  'Nuff said.
 
Actually, to be perfectly blunt, serving members DON'T have a say in how their country should be run.  They can vote but as I remember QR&Os opinions of a political nature are for politicians, not soldiers.

That was sorted out in the 1600's.

Cheers ;)

And nicely said Horse Soldier.
 
Well lets restate that a bit. Soldier's have no say as far as policy is concerned. We can still voice our opinions through the ballot box and by speaking, letter writing respectively to our representative in our area.

And yes, the current form of monarchy is very much like a prostitute. They get paid by our government to bend over and take duty up the ass. And they don't get to quit until their dead. I'll still respect HRH for it.

Yes our system is very much based on the British model. Some things are different (no house of lords. Its called a senate) however. As well, it has worked (In Britain) to some small degree for some few hundred years longer then our friends to the south. Yes it has its faults and frailties, but until someone comes up with an entirely ground breaking form of government, I think it is the one we are happily stuck with.

Corruption in our Gov? You bet. Pretty much in every ministry. There isn't one form of Government that doesn't have it. However, the amount and scale of corruption to the south makes us look like angels. The Government isn't run by the people down there. Its run by the power brokers in the various special interest groups. Its all a matter of scale.

As for Rome being a republic. Yes it was at times. However it was NOT when the various emperors were in power. Although if enough people were pissed off at said emperor, he usually ended up dead.

Our system is not perfect. But it is Canadian, Queen and all. Myself personally would say "Thank you Britain for giving us our Mum." because it could be alot worse.
 
Cheers Zipper  ;D

Although the image you have left me of Lizzy is a bit daunting..... Wonder what Phillip does with himself?

Nasty thoughts, must purify mind.
 
radiohead said:
" It really scares me on how some people on this forum, who are current members of our forces, are bashing our current system, the constitutional monarchy. It also is disturbing that these members think the current system is  not Canadian. I suggest you pack your bags and move down south. Im sure you support global warming too, whatever more makes it America"

so serving members don't have a say how their country should be run.  The current system we have is not Canadian its British.  Just like the monarchy is British and NOT CANADIAN.

We as canadians have to serious look at our system of gov't and work to get it changed.  Its old and out dated and hasn't worked right in years.  And dude I shouldn't have to move down south just because I think our old dated British system sucks.  It remminds of the Family of compact days when Canadians were pushing for changing and Our colonial leader were very happy with the system they had at the time.

Yes, and you prefer an American system of goverment. The monarchy is one of the few symbols that distinguish Canada from the U.S. Take that away, then we would have to create a new legal system. The only things remaining would be our love for hockey, Maple syrup, and the names of cities, mountains, lakes, rivers, and provinces.
 
To me, the Queen represents good government and protection of her subjects. Once she no longer means those things, then my support along with it.

I think I'd prefer to swear an oath to someone living that I can consider a leader and an authority figure rather than some political hack or a piece of paper. It's more personal; I'm responsible to be obedient to the Queen and the Queen is responsible for taking care of me as her subject.

That's all in traditional sense really, but tradition is what binds a society together. Symbols are more powerful than what most people realize.

Is the monarchy in Canada broken? I don't think so.
Don't try to fix what is not broken.
 
Royal Highland Fusilier,I agree with you 100 per cent. Those that think we should replace the monarchy are unable to come up with anything inspiring to replace it with. We would end up with some washed-up politician or other patronage appointment as "president" and lose a large part of our history and a beautiful symbolic relationship that works perfectly well.
 
Pencil Tech said:
Royal Highland Fusilier,I agree with you 100 per cent. Those that think we should replace the monarchy are unable to come up with anything inspiring to replace it with. We would end up with some washed-up politician or other patronage appointment as "president" and lose a large part of our history and a beautiful symbolic relationship that works perfectly well.

Yes, I agree with you there, what is wrong with the Monarchy? Doesnt cost us much and its OUR heritage. I can imagine how many veterans would turn in their graves if we abolished the monarchy. Look how angry they were over the new flag!
 
Canuck_25 said:
Yes, I agree with you there, what is wrong with the Monarchy? Doesnt cost us much and its OUR heritage. I can imagine how many veterans would turn in their graves if we abolished the monarchy. Look how angry they were over the new flag!

Being a war veteran doesn't mean you know what is good for the country.   The new flag was necessary and is a great idea.   Some"veterans" have also been against banning smoking in public places, against women in Highland regiments wearing the same uniforms as their male counterparts, and other things that the majority of Canadians have felt differntly about (and indeed, "veterans" never speak with a unanimous voice but express their own opinions on things).

I do respect the views of veterans, but not 100 percent of the time solely because they are veterans.
 
Michael Dorosh said:
Being a war veteran doesn't mean you know what is good for the country.   The new flag was necessary and is a great idea.   Some"veterans" have also been against banning smoking in public places, against women in Highland regiments wearing the same uniforms as their male counterparts, and other things that the majority of Canadians have felt differntly about (and indeed, "veterans" never speak with a unanimous voice but express their own opinions on things).

I do respect the views of veterans, but not 100 percent of the time solely because they are veterans.

Yes, but you have to respect for what they fought for, our way of life. Of course, many veterans are conservative, mainly because they hold values they lived under.

As one famous man said (this is from memory) "When your young, your liberal. When your old, your conservative."

Also, a famous speech i would like to show.

"Canada is the linchpin of the English-speaking world. Canada, with those relations of friendly, affectionate intimacy with the United States on the one hand and with her unswerving fidelity to the British Commonwealth and the Motherland on the other, is the link which joins together these great branches of the human family, a link which, spanning the oceans, brings the continents into their true relation and will prevent in future generations any growth of division between the proud and the happy nations of Europe and the great countries which have come into existence in the New World." Speech given at a luncheon in honour of Mackenzie King, Prime Minister of Canada, Mansion House, London, September 4, 1941.

 
Canuck_25 said:
Yes, but you have to respect for what they fought for, our way of life. Of course, many veterans are conservative, mainly because they hold values they lived under.

Ah. Dorosh said he does respect the veterans, as I'm sure everyone on this ARMY.CA website does.  I believe he was stating that just because a veteran says it's so, doesn't mean it is.

I'm a little lost how a speech given 63 years ago has any relevance to this particular topic.  Canada's status on the world stage has changed drastically since that time, and the speech didn't really do much for the whole Monarchy debate that this thread is about...

T
 
And again this looks to be a generational thing. The younger set "seems" to think that if it doesn't have relevance to them personally, then why have it. There are no sacred cows unless it involves them directly (and yes I know this is a generalization).

Sometimes tradition is good for traditions sake. It acts like an anchor, a known quantity in changing times. This includes the Regimental system. A soldier always remembers his oath and his Regiment (Branch).

The process of abolishing the monarchy would be more divisive then would be worth keeping the status quo. And what of the Army.. The RCR becomes the Canadian Regiment, the KOCR becomes the Calgary Regiment (gunner56), The RCA becomes the Canadian Artillery. All hatbadges would have the crown removed. And the Navy- HMCS to ?. Farfetched sure, but I think we lose quite a bit of our identify.

 
Torlyn is right, lets focus on "here" and "now".  The political landscape of the 1040's is not really relevent to what the Citizens of Canada need (and deserve) today.
Canuck 25, all you've offered is to the argument is to tell people who do not want a monarchy to go to the United States - maybe I should say that if you want a Monarchy, pack up and go to the United Kingdom where it resides.  If you do not want to take part in a critical debate, then go somewhere else before I have to put a muzzle on you.

Anyways, here is a new look at the argument which may be a suitable (and uniquely Canadian) approach to satisfying the issue.

I have two chief problems with the maintenance of the Monarchy as the institution responsible as our Head-of-State:

1)  It is an unelected position, meaning that the actions of those who inherit it are unaccountable to the citizenry who hold the sovereign estate in a liberal democracy (witness the gaffe of members of the Royal Family in the press).  As well, since it is inherited, none may rise to take on the duties and responsabilities of such an important office.

2)  Since it is an unelected institution that flies in the face of the liberal democratic order, it has been reduced to a mere figurehead having no de facto political power in our system, despite having the constitutional right to do so.

However, I still wish to maintain the advantages that the Parliamentary Democracy affords us, the central one being that the Chief Executive is above the political partisanship of Parliament and that loyalty goes to the Crown first and foremost instead of two some body of political hacks.  A good example of this is the fact that the Governor-General, as representative of the Queen, is the de jure Commander-in-Chief of the Canadian Forces.  As the nations top military officer, the CDS has the right (enshrined in law) to go through his Chain-of-Command, above Parliament, and appeal/complain directly to the Chief Executive.  This principle is to keep the military loyal to the people (whos will is embodied in the Crown) rather then to the partisan political group of the day.  However, the fact is that since the King-Byng affair our Chief Executive, the GG, has basically been "de-clawed" of their constitutional duties.  The result, the Office of the Prime Minster is the most centralized chief executive postion in the Western World.  The Prime Minister literally has more power then the US President with regards to what he can legally do in executing his duties.  This means that there is limited "checks-and-balances", central to democracy since its inception under Cleisthenes in Athens, on an office which basically rules by fiat after being elected (something the original monarchy/Parliament arrangement was meant to curtail).

Here is my solution which may be able to satisfy both requirements - I'll call it 21st Century Parliamentary Democracy.

All States need a symbol.  In the US, the symbol is the Constitution of the United States of America (which sprung from the principles of the Declaration of Independence) for which the Government is charged to uphold and maintain.  In Canada, our enduring symbol has been the Crown, where all loyalty is focused.  The problem is that the Crown is held by a monarchy which has managed to stick around despite going out of style over a century ago.

When Queen Elizabeth II passes on, Canada should refuse to accept her heir as the new Head of State.  Rather, we will request (buy?) a Crown from the British; the Tower of London has a bunch, so I'm sure they won't mind losing one.

This Crown shall become the Crown of Canada.  It will be the embodiment of the Sovereign State of Canada and the resting place of the Sovereign Estate of the People (like Hobbes's Leviathan).  It, like our Constitution, will rest in Canada.  The Crown will still be the "symbol" of Canadian sovereignty - loyalty will be sworn to the Crown, public land will still remain "Crown Land", and the Rule of Law will still be executed by "The Crown".  This ensures that sovereignty is focused on an apolitical object rather then a partisan body.

The Governor-General shall become our Head of State and be given the title of "Holder of the Crown" (They will not wear it).  The office of the Governor-General will be one that is open to any Canadian citizen and one that is elected and responsible to the Citizens of Canada.

However, in order to maintain the notion that the Chief Executive is above partisan politics, the Governor-General will be a largely reactive institution.  I would like it to a position for which the holder is elected for a long period of time, say 10 years (with certain recall conditions), in order to give the Office a sense of an enduring presence in politics.  Lacking any sort of Constitutional proactiveness, the goal of setting up the Governor-General as the Chief Executive is to institute the "Elder Statesman" position within our government; a figure that is reserved and observant, but influential (and supplied with the Constitutional powers to do so) if the situation requires it.

The day-to-day running of the Government will reside with Parliament and the Prime Minister (although I'd like to see an expanded role for the Senate).  All the skulduggery and muckraking can stay in Parliament where it belongs.  Parliament shall remain charged with delivering "Peace, Order, and Good Government" while the Governor-General shall be charged with overseeing the figurative and physical protection of the Crown (our sovereign embodiment) by making sure Parliament does its job.  They will largely be responsible for representing Canada abroad, overseeing the organization of new Governments in Parliament, be charged with (in full or shared responsibility) for certain important Government appointments, and shall act as the Commander-in-Chief of the Canadian Forces.  

This shouldn't require much of a shift from the present Constitutional arrangement, rather it is more of a realignment of political power structures to the way they were intended.  Other states function with Executive Duties being split between two equally important figures (France has a President and a Prime Minister) so I'm sure we can function like this and look to others to learn from their experiences.  I am sure that, now that the office would be elected, we could transfer some of the powers of the Prime Minister to the Governor-General.  However, as I said above, I'd want to be careful to avoid making the GG a proactive political office, as this will bring the GG, as Holder of the Crown, inappropriately down to the level of partisan politics.  Sure, we will never eliminate bias or political outlook in those who occupy the office, but constitutionally we can limit the effect this has on the execution of their duties.

There you go, this proposal may be the best route to take because it satisfies the following problems:
1) It upholds our heritage of Parliamentary Democracy which is subordinated to The Crown (it will now be our Crown)
2) It maintains our tradition of having our Head-of-State being above partisan politics and overseeing the Government.
3) It satisfies the liberal democratic principle of the Head-of-State being accountable to the will of the Sovereign estate (The citizenry of Canada).
4) It satisfies the liberal democratic principle which sees the position of Head-of-State being one of a meritocracy (those who merit the popular vote of their fellow citizens) rather then one of a inherited estate (those who happen to be the offspring of Royalty).
[I should add 5) The military gets to maintain its traditional link as a servent of The Crown, with all the regalia (Crown Colours), titles (Royal shall be a Crown designation given by the Governor-General on behalf of the Crown), and traditions ("To The Crown and the Governor-General!").]

Roundheads and Cavaliers unite in comments and criticism (Kirkhill, I'm looking at you  :D)

Infanteer
 
Kirkhill's nodding cautiously  ;)

Don't want to nod too vigorously in case my head comes detached from my shoulders.

I generally like the concept I think.  Timeline might be in debate and some other details but I think I could buy in.

Not bad young'un.
 
Infanteer, your proposal is one of many. Also, stating you will put a muzzle on me for arguing with those who have no loyalty at all, that is plainly the abuse of your position. Those you post critical post, calling the monarchy "uncanadian" and propose a republic, you dont shove the muzzle on them, nor do you warn them of their actions. Suggesting they move down south and enjoy a republic certainly is a suggestion at best. Acting as a responsible moderator, sitting on the fence, is your job. Dont let your oppinion abuse your position. A moderator should referee disputes that are "on fire" and should watch for language and unnecessary "bashing."

  If anyone on this forum can disagree with me on this fact; the monarchy distinguishes us from the americans, please, post a a credible arguement.

 
Canuck_25 said:
Infanteer, your proposal is one of many. Also, stating you will put a muzzle on me for arguing with those who have no loyalty at all, that is plainly the abuse of your position.

No it is not.   Rather then offer up a critical defence of the Monarchy, you've repeatedly lobbed out posts that center around "disloyalty to tradition".   We ignored it as a empty rant the first time, but you've insisted on spelling it out again and again - I would send the same warning along to someone who insisted on repeatedly pounding on the opposite point (much to all our dismay).   Now I'm telling you to substantiate your claims with a relevent political argument or to keep it zipped and quit spamming this thread with zero-content, inflammatory posts.   (I don't consider myself disloyal, thank you).

If anyone on this forum can disagree with me on this fact; the monarchy distinguishes us from the americans, please, post a a credible arguement.

How does it distinguish us from Americans?   We work in Information Age economies, take part in representative democracies, live under the Rule of Law, and are protected by Constitutional arrangements which enshrine the rights of the Individual.   Sure, history has made the window-dressing a bit different, but the core remains the same.   I've argued on maintaining Parliamentary Democracy's relevance in the modern liberal democratic order by enshrining its best qualities (of which a monarchy is clearly not) in a renewed constitutional framework.

You, on the other hand, seem to be promoting a defence of monarchy based solely upon distinguishing us from our neighbours to South (of which no two people share more commonalities) with whom 250 years has lead to stronger ties, both cultural and political, then those that exist with our British cousins (where our de jure Head-of-State resides).   Sounds like you need to put down the Mel Hurtig books and start thinking about the issues you are discussing.
 
Greetings!
it is in my humble opinion that the monarchy is apart of Canada and who we are so we shuld definatley keep that :cdn:
but that doesn't mean there's not room for improvement.
thats just my $0.02
-Tony
 
Just so y'all know,I haven't been a serving member since 1987.That was with 604 RCAIRCC(Cadet instructor list). That said...
President(elected separately from party)
Elected Senate(equal representation)
Elected House(equal representation)
Elected Judges
All responsible under the law to those who hired them,and subject to term limits,and legislative recall if they screw-up(which some will)

As for Chretien...let us not forget the infamous golf resort scandal.I believe that he used Prime Ministerial influence to help a friend(please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) And,don't forget GG's expensive,and wastful Great Northern Tour(with sycophants aboard)and her exhorbitant funding increase.
 
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