RMC Officer Sues to Avoid Saluting, Toasting Queen?

[a_majoor]

Just to clarify things for people, HRH Elizabeth II is a Sovereign Person, and therefore not subject to nationality like the rest of us (a distinction shared by a few other monarchs). Arguments based on Her Majesty's residency or nationality are moot, our Sovereign Majesty can choose to live and work anywhere she wants. 

As Queen of Canada, therefore, she is as Canadian as you or I.

 

[dimsum]

why
-we are now a multi cultural country- why swear allegiance to a foreign monarch.

She is not Canadian old chap!

Anyone else find it interesting/funny/ironic that this guy has a certain regimental crest as his pic?  Take a good look at it. 

 

[Kat Stevens]

Royal Canadian Army Service Corps..... so?

 

[vonGarvin]

A friend of mine lives next to him.  We're trying to convince him to crank up "God Save the Queen" every night before he goes to bed.

Followed by "Rule Brittania", and then the theme from "Coronation Street".  >

 

[dimsum]

I meant the letters inside the star...E II R

(technically, the letter, number and letter)

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

The attitude and antics of this Officer must be common knowledge to his Mess Mates and other Messes in the Area, so it would be a fair assumption that he must be a pariah among them.

He must do a lot of drinking alone, (maybe he doesn't drink) but I can't see his Brother Officers readily or socially associating with him.

I don't know if or how much the Forces might have changed, but I remember, he'd be lucky to get in the door.   

Of course this is all personal speculation, but I'm sure that I'm not the only one marching to this drummer.

Cheers.

Sadly in today's military the mess is somewhat optional these days. You have to pay dues but it is possible to never darken the door. Mess dinners were mandatory when I served with a regiment in the nineties but in the Navy and Air Force they were on a voluntary sign up basis in recent years.

 

[gordjenkins]

[i]Anyone else find it interesting/funny/ironic that this guy has a certain regimental crest as his pic?  Take a good look at it.  Wink[/i]
My point exactly
why should I have had to go around looking like a London Metropolitan Policeman with a Crown on top of my badge?

and
Latin "nil sine labore" Latin around the bottom

at least they had courtesy to add Royal Canadian Army Service Corps

-both Monarchy Crown AND Latin  have their place
or had

- not in Canada nowadays though!

wink



it would be a fair assumption that he must be a pariah among them.

What in "Heavens"  name would draw you to an assumption such as this?
and you - a man of "the cloth"? How can you even suggest with your 'training" that he IS a pariah?
You are just ticked off because it was RMC Cadets who refused to attend "compulsory " Church Parades years ago-
and WON!



As Queen of Canada, therefore, she is as Canadian as you or I.

Does that mean that Charles and his new wife will be too/ How about Conrad Black LOL



[i]That's his dilemma though -- he obviously respects her enough to accept her paycheck every month[/i]

Last time I believe the Queen paid was when the Brits had troops in Esquimalt and Halifax -early 1800s.
(I stand to be corrected on this)  Nowadays I believe this RMC gentleman's paycheck has on it "Receiver General of Canada' aka Canadian taxpayer.

In summary gentlemen, the Queen time in Canada is fading fast -
enjoy QE2 while she lives
- after her
bye bye Britain
hello Canada

or...

God Save King Charles and Queen Camilla !!??

 

[Teflon]

gordjenkins

Despite what you think, She (The Queen) is still around, and still the Queen of Canada so till such time as she isn't I guess you will just have to deal with your issues you have with that fact,...

But till she isn't around,...

Ladies and Gentlemen,... the Queen!

 

[armyvern]

-both have their place
or had

- not in Canada nowadays though!

Legally ... she certainly IS the Queen of Canada ... even nowadays. Your point is moot. She IS our Queen, and as long as She remains so ... we who have Sworn that Oath are OBLIGATED by Duty & Order to respect and follow that Oath. The lives of our brothers & sisters in uniform, and indeed of our fellow Canadians, DEPEND upon their soldiers upholding the duties and possible sacrifices associated with the Swearing of that Oath to defend.

As Queen of Canada, therefore, she is as Canadian as you or I.

Does that mean that Charles and his new wife will be too/ How about Conrad Black LOL

Hmmm, The Oath that YOU also swore to ...

"be faithful and bear true allegiance to Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, her hiers and successors."

So YES, if Charles becomes the next Monarch and King of Canada, then yes ... absolutely as already Sworn to in that SAME Oath. But then, YOU already knew that and are simply beginning to troll.

Last time I believe the Queen paid was when the Brits had troops in Esquimalt and Halifax -early 1800s.
(I stand to be corrected on this)  Nowadays I believe this RMC gentleman's paycheck has on it "Receiver General of Canada' aka Canadian taxpayer.

In summary gentlemen, the Queen time in Canada is fading fast -
enjoy QE2 while she lives
- after her
bye bye Britain
hello Canada

or...

God Save King Charles and Queen Camilla !!??

Trolling. Last time I checked, Canada had not decided that status UNDER the Queen was going to change with Her Majesty's death. Just what (in your own words) "in Gods name would draw you to an assumption such as this?"

(Edited to add:  I note that your quote immediately above "in Gods name would draw you to an assumption such as this?", has now been modified in your original post to read as: "in "Heavens" name would draw you to an assumption such as this?" I'll leave your quote in it's original context within my post. It matters not to me a single iota of difference.)

Long live the Queen.

 

[Reccesoldier]

My point exactly
why should I have had to go around looking like a London Metropolitan Policeman with a Crown on top of my badge?

and
Latin "nil sine labore" Latin around the bottom

at least they had courtesy to add Royal Canadian Army Service Corps

-both have their place
or had

- not in Canada nowadays though!

So, why use that symbol as your avatar?  You obviously have no respect for it so why not choose another one?

it would be a fair assumption that he must be a pariah among them.

What in Gods name would draw you to an assumption such as this? and you - a man of "the cloth"?
RMC

Quite obviously because he recognizes that the CF as an institution has an inordinate amount of people to whom tradition, loyalty and honour aren't words that they had to look up in the dictionary, nor do most (excluding you and this professor apparently) pay lip service to their oath.

As Queen of Canada, therefore, she is as Canadian as you or I.

Does that mean that Charles and his new wife will be too/ How about Conrad Black LOL

 

As soon as Prince Charles becomes the Sovereign he too shall be as Canadian as you or I.  As for Black he renounced his citizenship so as far as I'm concerned he (and anyone like him) can toss off.

 

[Trinity]

it would be a fair assumption that he must be a pariah among them.

What in "Heavens"  name would draw you to an assumption such as this?
and you - a man of "the cloth"? How can you even suggest with your 'training" that he IS a pariah?
You are just ticked off because it was RMC Cadets who refused to attend "compulsory " Church Parades years ago-
and WON!

I believe you are mistaken. Fast Eddy called him a pariah, Not In Hoc Signo. 

What does one's trade have to do with one's opinion?  There are idiots in all trades. (not saying he is one )

And yes, I'm positive that all chaplains are "ticked off" because RMC cadets won the right for all
CF members not to attend church parades.  That must be it.  What more reason does In Hoc Signoneed
to dislike this officer but an event NOT related to the topic such as RMC students and parades.  [/sarcasm off]

edited for [/sarcasm] and clarity

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

gordjenkins,

Mod Warning....I might not be much for old traditions but it'll be a cold day in hell before I let you insult our Queen, and make it seem as if you look forward to the fair lady's demise, on this website and get away with it.
Consider this your freebee......

 

[Lumber]

I'm going to play devil's advocate and try and keep people honest so that we're not ranting with our emotions boiling near critical mass. Hope this one doesn't blow up in my face as usual:

While gordjenkins may have spoken contemptuously about the Queen, he never actually insulted her, nor did he say anything about being disloyal, or that his misgivings would have a negative effect on his duties. His opinion that the Queen is even less than a mere figure his definitely moot, and I certainly don't feel he has the right to express this opinion so vocally. To me it just seems disloyal, as does the opinion of RMC Officer (my Astronomy teacher) of which this article is titled.

As for his making it seem like he is looking forward to the fair lady's demise, I can't see why he would. With my little experience, she seems like a fine person, not to mention her being my Head of State. However, gordjenkins wouldn't be the first person to wish they had someone else above them in the COC. I can't say from experience, but can I not reasonably say that their are countless examples of soldiers with COs who made them pray for the day of their transfer to another unit? As long as it does not interfere with their duty, and I don't believe gordjenkins has indicated it would, then look forward if you please, if your situation is only so unbearable.

As for the citizenship of the Queen, I first read on Wikipedia and got whiffs through further research that the Queen, as Regnant, technically has no Nationality. Instead of holding the nationality of every one of her realms simultaneously, she is above the requirement of having a nationality, she his quite simply the monarch. I couldn't get a perfect confirmation of this, but I couldn't confirm her "Canadian" citizenship either.

Oh and the GG is our C-in-C, not the Queen. The position technically falls upon the Queen, but the GG holds the title. It's not similar to how the GG represents the Queen in Canada. The Queen is the Queen, but the GG is basically the Queen in Canada (I know the semantics aren't great here but I'm going for brevity). Unlike representing the Queen, the GG is not simply representing the C-in-C , she IS the C-in-C.
'

 

[armyvern]

I'm going to play devil's advocate and try and keep people honest so that we're not ranting with our emotions boiling near critical mass. Hope this one doesn't blow up in my face as usual:

While gordjenkins may have spoken contemptuously about the Queen, he never actually insulted her, nor did he say anything about being disloyal, or that his misgivings would have a negative effect on his duties. His opinion that the Queen is even less than a mere figure his definitely moot, and I certainly don't feel he has the right to express this opinion so vocally. To me it just seems disloyal, as does the opinion of RMC Officer (my Astronomy teacher) of which this article is titled.

Sure, he never actually insulted The Queen, but he certainly insinuated it. He did actually insult both his former Unit, and their isignia & tradition with this:

My point exactly
why should I have had to go around looking like a London Metropolitan Policeman with a Crown on top of my badge?

This statement itself can further be contextualized and classified as direct insult to The Queen -- as we all know that that is exactly what his intentions were by the use of the word "Crown" and the implication that it was the "Crown" which sullied & tarnished that Unit's isignia.

I don't know about you, but that disgusts me. It is insulting to know that a person who voluntarily swore an Oath to The Crown would willingly train, soldier, and work with personnel within a Unit whose basic tenet of service depends upon respecting their Oath, camraderie, team work, and Unit pride and loyalty -- would be so quick and careless as to allow his personal opinion regarding the Monarchy to tarnish the very symbol of that Unit and those personnel -- his fellow soldiers.

 

[medaid]

I think you need to give your head a shake GJ. Your comments are far from professional, and I call your service into question. Please, don't feel insulted, because I've yet to express my full opinion and reasons to why I've said that. Because of your feelings to our CiC, and your obvious lack of loyalty to both the service and your oath, I am going to argue that your enrollment was irregular, hence you should've never been in the Forces. I would argue strongly that you should've had your a$$ thrown out of the service for that reason alone. Want another reason? How about conspiracy to incite mutiny? Because with what you're spewing, it sure sounds like it to me. How is that remotely related? Well simple, Queen is our CiC. Your lack of loyalty to her, her heirs and saying that the should be abolished are a blatant act of mutiny, or the conspiracy there of. I hope you never tried to convince other during your service, because that would only further solidify my point.

You are unfit to have that crest as you avatar. You are unfit to have claimed to have served, because that service was done through ill faith, and disloyalty!

I will probably get dinged for having said all that, but that is my feelings towards your views against my Queen and my CiC.

If Britain ever calls on us for aide again, I will be on the forefront to offer my services. This is MY duty as a Canadian Forces Officer. This is MY LOYALTY as an Officer in Her Majesty's Canadian Forces. This is MY HONOUR as both a Citizen and an Officer under the Canadian flag and the Crown of the Monarchy.

God Save the Queen.

 

[Pikache]

This subject will always be a touchy one, so before anyone adds to this thread, let's not go half cocked and ruin this thread.

People make bad posts when emotions run wild.

-Army.ca staff

 

[Pikache]

Oaths are personal things. Our Oath of Allegiance signifies a personal relationship between the member and the Queen.

If you're in the CF, you take the entire thing, not just the parts that you like.

If you feel that you can't complete your obligation according to the oath that you have sworn, well, you shouldn't have taken that oath in the first place. No one put a gun to your head and forced you to say the oath.

The relationship betwen CF and the Queen is of symbolism, and that of tradition. In practical sense, the Queen has very little say on day to day affairs of CF, but it's the symbolism and tradition that makes CF what it is.

So if we get rid of the Queen, then does this mean rest of the traditions of CF has no relevant meaning?

 

[vonGarvin]

So if we get rid of the Queen, then does this mean rest of the traditions of CF has no relevant meaning?

Eliminating Canada's relationship with the Queen would involve much more than the CF.  The constitution would have to change, for starters, and right now, in Canada, there are many more important things on the go, and it would certainly be divisive.

 

[armyvern]

Eliminating Canada's relationship with the Queen would involve much more than the CF.  The constitution would have to change, for starters, and right now, in Canada, there are many more important things on the go, and it would certainly be divisive.

Exactly.

And, until such time as IT happens, if ever, than I shall fulfill my Sworn Oath and do my Duty IAW with that Oath ... under The Queen and will show Her & the bearers of Her Commission that due respect which is an inherent and sworn requirement for donning this Nation's uniform of Military Service.

As required. As expected.

It IS the professional thing to do.

 

[Infanteer]

Yay - it's this argument again.  Does anyone have anything interesting to add, or are we just going to toss this around for another 10 pages?

:boring: