RMS CLK
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OK, doing a little more research for the wife, she's in BMQ right now, and she can see the light at the end of the tunnel....
She was told by her recruiter that she will not have to do SQ, and none of her paperwork states anything about SQ, but she is Army... SQ or no SQ?
I was under the impression that SQ had gone the way of the Do-do, and that BMQ was extended to 13 weeks to give all recruits the basic basic knowledge of soldiering that SQ would have given them.
Seeing as how anybody could find themselves in the poo, navy, army or air force, clerk, cook or bin rat, wouldn't everyone have to do SQ then? If not, wouldn't they need to do it before deploying to (insert mission here)? Any input is welcome.
She was told by her recruiter that she will not have to do SQ, and none of her paperwork states anything about SQ, but she is Army... SQ or no SQ?
I was under the impression that SQ had gone the way of the Do-do, and that BMQ was extended to 13 weeks to give all recruits the basic basic knowledge of soldiering that SQ would have given them.
Seeing as how anybody could find themselves in the poo, navy, army or air force, clerk, cook or bin rat, wouldn't everyone have to do SQ then? If not, wouldn't they need to do it before deploying to (insert mission here)? Any input is welcome.
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RCR Grunt said:
Seeing as how I am sitting on PRETC here in Borden now, and see the courses being loaded, I'll share what I know so far.
As an Army RMS CLerk, she will most likely (as per the way things are going here now) be loaded on SQ if there is a gap in time before her trades training starts and there is an SQ available. I'm loaded on the Nov 19 - Dec 14 SQ course (shortened to one month because of the extended BMQ), along with two Navy Medics and an Army RMS Clerk I graduated with. PRETC does their best to keep you busy while waiting for your trades course. The first priority is qualifications like SQ and Driver's training, before OJT. (EWAT is what it is called here) They say "the more qualifications the better". What I have been told is that I can only have EWAT if I have taken the available qualification courses first.
Hope that helps. Let me know if you have any questions. I can always ask my staff.
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kratz said:While the hardcopies are easier to read, I do not miss having to do the pub amendments.
I'm with you on that one.
However - ever since the amendments became a PULL system, instead of a PUSH system, IMHO RMS Clks have ceased to be "repositories of information", and more "researchers FOR information".
When I first became an Adm Clk (around 1982), amendments to the CFAOs were issued on a biweekly basis (IE - 26 times a year). It was possible to be an expert in your area of responsibility (rations, or TD for example), and be confident that you knew what you were talking about. The amendment cover sheet would be circulated amongst the staff every two weeks, and if there was an amendment that affected your area, you read it - thus remaining confident in the currency of your knowledge.
When the PULL system of amendments came in (late '90s as I recall), I was a Chief Clerk in a major unit. I began to notice a decline in the expertise of my people - they were CONSTANTLY referring to the online pubs prior to expressing an opinion regarding their area of expertise. Were they stupid? Of course not - it was just that they had NO WAY of being confident in their knowledge without checking the online publication EVERY TIME they were asked a question - they didn't know what had been changed without PHYSICALLY (or electronically, if you prefer) checking the publication EVERY SINGLE TIME they were asked a question.
This fact slowed things down in my Orderly Room - none of my subordinates (or ME, for that matter) were able to CONFIDENTLY carry out their assigned duties without CONSTANTLY checking the online pubs. This became even more onerous with the introduction of DAODs, and the arising of the habit of amending orders via CANFORGEN instead of actually amending the publication in question.
I realize this saved a forest or two in printing overhead - but it lead to a lack of confidence in one's knowledge.
I don't know how to do it, but there needs to be a reliable way to let folks know what has changed without them spending an inordinate amount of time CHECKING, every time a question comes up.
I imagine some similar phenomenon was noticed in other trades (I've dealt with CFTOs in my time) as well.
My little observation, for what it's worth.
Roy
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Roy,
Your observation hit the heart of the issue on pubs and knowledgeable clerks. When I joined, it used to be considered the sign of a good Fin Clk (841) to know the P&A tables from memory, along with the references. I see the same points in the Ship's Office as you mentioned.
Your observation hit the heart of the issue on pubs and knowledgeable clerks. When I joined, it used to be considered the sign of a good Fin Clk (841) to know the P&A tables from memory, along with the references. I see the same points in the Ship's Office as you mentioned.
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Roy Harding said:
Bang on Roy. This too, affects the 911ers daily. It's especially ripe when one DOES NOT check on-line electroncially each & every single time they perform a function that is covered by online publications and directives and then finds themselves getting nailed to the crossed boards because info had changed since the last time they performed the function (which could, literally, have been earlier that very morning!).
I've asked a couple of pers why they are so insistant on doing with this every time ... their answers were along the same lines (one was my former CC ... another a Cpl in LPO) ... The scales in Clothing Stores are also the exact same way ... you never know who's done what to them the night before (witness the "NO cadpat for Air Force CIC Officers thread").
From the Cpl came the following words:
You never know when they are going to officially change the rules ... sometimes things change once or twice a day ... so when I'm doing a purchase I always check for the latest directives and regualtions pertaining to it, even if I've bought the same thing twice that day already. Why says I??
Answer: Because, it's my ass signing off on it -- so if some dweeb changes the directives online between my first purchase that day ... and the second one -- it's my lowly little ass that gets slammed by the auditor for non-compliance, not the people who sit in Ottawa ammending the damn things whenever they wish.
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ArmyVern said:
So what's the solution?
Although I'm no longer in, and don't worry about it any more, it disheartens me that this is still going on. Just to emphasize the point, having all pubs online also affects deployed ops (I don't know how this affects ships at sea). When comms are down, all access to them disappears. This is no small thing - I was CC of the BG which suffered the first four blue on blue's in Apr 02. When that incident happened, our comms were (naturally) shut down. In that instance, all the required reports and returns were submitted using a combination of the experience of myself and my 2IC (we both, unfortunately, had prior experience with death on ops), and an old CD of CFAOs/QR&Os I had brought along with me.
I don't know what the answer is - perhaps an "amendments" page on each pub? A schedule for issuing of amendments? IE, this pub will have amendments issued once per month/per week, whatever works. One could then review the amendments page on that schedule, and "know" if anything had changed in your particular area of concern - sort of an electronic equivalent to the old manner of amending CFAOs. I realize there would be a cost associated with doing it this way (extra personnel to ensure the "amendments page" is current) - but I firmly believe that the time saved by thousands of tradesmen across the military would more than offset the cost.
As I said - I'm no longer personally concerned, but the above is a suggestion for any of you who may want to push it upward to wherever it needs to be pushed.
In the interest of not TOTALLY hijacking the thread - RCR Grunt, how's your wife doing? Please let us know how her situation vis a vis SQ works out - it kind of reminds me of the old LET (Land Environmental Training) that was tried once upon a time.
Roy
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Roy Harding said:
I can't comment on the Reg force ships, although I do believe that they are capable alot more often of being connected to the DIN while at sea. For the MCDVs though, our time online was limited and dependent on our satellite connection too. So you either wait for that, call someone ashore, use the out-dated papercopies, or hope that not much had changed on the current CD you had of the regs.
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I know the MCDVs do not have continuous connection. I can not answer for the heavies, but as a clerk, when all else fails as Ron did in his example. Pull out the backup CD copies and ref them in conjunction with hardcopy until a link-up can be made.
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Roy,
There are some pubs with a scheduled update cycle (ie the 1st & 3rd Teusday of every month). Unfortunately, in those cases, that's usually when we are subjected to the interim amendments coming out via CANFORGEN/CANAIRGEN/AIGs etc that announce an "effective immediately" change ... that won't be reflected in the on-line version until the next scheduled amendment date.
All this accomplishs is ensuring that Cpl Clerk Where-ever now has to scroll through 10001 messages (hopefully with an accurate "Subject" line -- vice the standard DTG listing) to make sure there hasn't been an "effective immediately" msg cut which would effect his actions.
God forbid the CF ever has to provide Aid to the Civil Power etc during (let's say) a freak power outage through the 400 series corridor which lasts for a couple weeks with no power and no computers. The young 'uns would freak!!
I've actually stood up a continuous improvement cell here in the past couple of weeks. They are going to be shocked when they come in for their training only to find that the computer will be turned off and they've got Stock Record Cards sitting in front opf them. "What the hell are these??" they'll say ... and I'll be saying "it's time to get back to basics ladies and gents & you'd better damn well know how to use these should the shit ever hit the fan." Sad thing is, those in my trade with less than 10 years in have never seen them (unless of course they've deployed on Op Boxtop etc where their use is still common practice). It's pretty sad that they aren't even seeing paper copies of forms and paperwork that would be an essential requirement should they have to work without those damn computers in the CoE for our respective trades during their basic trades training.
There are some pubs with a scheduled update cycle (ie the 1st & 3rd Teusday of every month). Unfortunately, in those cases, that's usually when we are subjected to the interim amendments coming out via CANFORGEN/CANAIRGEN/AIGs etc that announce an "effective immediately" change ... that won't be reflected in the on-line version until the next scheduled amendment date.
All this accomplishs is ensuring that Cpl Clerk Where-ever now has to scroll through 10001 messages (hopefully with an accurate "Subject" line -- vice the standard DTG listing) to make sure there hasn't been an "effective immediately" msg cut which would effect his actions.
God forbid the CF ever has to provide Aid to the Civil Power etc during (let's say) a freak power outage through the 400 series corridor which lasts for a couple weeks with no power and no computers. The young 'uns would freak!!
I've actually stood up a continuous improvement cell here in the past couple of weeks. They are going to be shocked when they come in for their training only to find that the computer will be turned off and they've got Stock Record Cards sitting in front opf them. "What the hell are these??" they'll say ... and I'll be saying "it's time to get back to basics ladies and gents & you'd better damn well know how to use these should the shit ever hit the fan." Sad thing is, those in my trade with less than 10 years in have never seen them (unless of course they've deployed on Op Boxtop etc where their use is still common practice). It's pretty sad that they aren't even seeing paper copies of forms and paperwork that would be an essential requirement should they have to work without those damn computers in the CoE for our respective trades during their basic trades training.
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Scot57 said:
Too funny. You got out just in time!! >
(By the way -- MIS is back too !! Finally!! F. A'H is running with it in Pet -- boy have we been busily emailing each other!)So ... I see you've requested a job application in another thread; perhaps I'll see you there!! I'll behave -- I promise! ;D
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We arrived at an exercise once. We were informed that everything for the Ship's Office would be there. With time in and experience, my wife and I arrived with our own laptops, CD backups of pubs and paper copies for various forms. Essentially, we had a mobile SHO. Thankfully we brought it, somehow the requests for IT and supplies had not been placed early enough to meet the exercise needs. With what we brought from home, we provided 2/3 of the support for the two weeks of the Ex.
With time in and experience, my wife and I arrived with our own laptops, CD backups of pubs and paper copies for various forms. Essentially, we had a mobile SHO. Thankfully we brought it, somehow the requests for IT and supplies had not been placed early enough to meet the exercise needs. With what we brought from home, we provided 2/3 of the support for the two weeks of the Ex.Roy - just noticed your post. Couldn't have said it better. Sadly, this applies with most trades. I think we all felt that sense of loss in confidence in the '90's (Process Re-Engineering ..yeah, right !! )Roy Harding said:
Vern. Good news reference MIS. It should never have disappeared. As far as the job goes .. just keeping my options openArmyVern said:Too funny. You got out just in time!! >
So ... I see you've requested a job application in another thread; perhaps I'll see you there!! I'll behave -- I promise! ;D
... I promised my wife I wouldn't do any thing drastic until she is done with school (Olds College) in April. Not sure if you could behave out here ...we also have Log Spiels ! :cheers:
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kratz said:
You just do that.
I'll note it here:
I have indeed been challenged to behave myself in public before -- and I did indeed manage to pull it off; it was a hell of a time as I certainly didn't want to behave, it was just essential that I did behave. In the end, I won!! Twice!! ;D
Hi everyone, just finished BMQ yesterday from St-Jean and on my way to Borden tomorrow to begin my RMS QL3s and am really nervous as to what to expect (everyone says it's SO different from basic and I realy want to do well). Any tips or suggestions as to making it thru more successfully??
