Royal Canadian Air Force headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general

[Kirkhill]

With the rest of the Brigade on call, as well as the divisional artillery, and a 'weapons free' ROE.

And don't forget "Broken Arrow"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctnK7wdJmAo

 

[Journeyman]

...and Sam Elliott as his Sergeant-Major.  :nod:

 

[Halifax Tar]

And a gun toting civi photographer ...

 

[Cloud Cover]

With the rest of the Brigade on call, as well as the divisional artillery, and a 'weapons free' ROE.

And did they ever come in handy, which is a good point. Moore ran into a force that they thought would be H-15 Viet Cong, instead it was a very large NVA formation + VC support. What are the chances of of a UN force finding itself dealing with an overwhelming force?   

 

[Ostrozac]

What are the chances of of a UN force finding itself dealing with an overwhelming force? 

It happens pretty routinely. The Sinai, Cyprus, Kashmir, Srebrenica, Krajina, Rwanda, Lebanon, etc...

The UN's usual response is to hunker down and wait till it all ends. That sometimes works out badly for the troops caught in front of an overwhelming force.

 

[quadrapiper]

I sure hope you're not a Navigator;  if the RCN is patrolling CAR or Mali, something has gone horribly wrong.  ;D

Definitely not a Navigator; had something like operations on the opposite coast of the continent, and those in the Gulf, in mind.

On that note, is there a coastal set of problems in that area to match the inland ones?

 

[Journeyman]

On that note, is there a coastal set of problems in that area to match the inland ones?

Piracy and smuggling (drugs and humans) are popular hobbies throughout Africa's flanking waters.

 

[Kirkhill]

Used to be a handy little organization known as the West Africa Squadron

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Africa_Squadron

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If we go to Mali in force, a wheeled SPG mounting 120mm mortars or 105mm howitzer would be very useful.

 

[a_majoor]

While there are references upthread to the battle of Ia Drang, people should remember that in 1954, GM-100, a French mechanized Regimental Combat Team was destroyed in an ambush near where the Americans had their action. And it should be noted that after Hal Moore's unit left, the 2nd Battalion, 7th Cavalry (1st Battalion's sister unit) was ambushed and took heavy casualties on their approach to LZ Albany.

The size and power of the force really isn't at issue, rather the nature of force's orders and the nature of the enemy they are fighting matters.

Canadian troops may find themselves in grave danger regardless of wether they send a lightly armed "peacekeeping" unit or a mechanized battlegroup with tanks and artillery if the mission parameters are unclear or the task they are given is unsuitable for the unit deployed.

Sadly for Collin P, the adoption of wheeled SP or 120mm mortars would only be considered (as an urgent requirement ) after the unit was overrun or nearly overrun in action, and given the way things work, they would probably be considered surplus and abandoned or given away after the "peacekeepers" came home to Canada.

 

[medicineman]

While there are references upthread to the battle of Ia Drang, people should remember that in 1954, GM-100, a French mechanized Regimental Combat Team was destroyed in an ambush near where the Americans had their action. And it should be noted that after Hal Moore's unit left, the 2nd Battalion, 7th Cavalry (1st Battalion's sister unit) was ambushed and took heavy casualties on their approach to LZ Albany.

The movie really should have shown the second half of the book - 2/7th really got hammered.  IIRC, they walked into an NVA regimental sized U shaped ambush...this was pretty much a light infantry vs light infantry battle, very much what could happen in Mali or elsewhere.  If the bad guys show up with something even resembling armour, Houston will be hearing about some problems, as long as it's during working hours in New York :...one of the reasons we had TUA deployed with us in Croatia and Bosnia in the 90's, since if the hordes came across, the 8xRAP rounds for the Carl G's weren't going to last long...nor the 6x60mmWP rounds...nor the 2 boxes of 0.50 cal...or 7.62mm...or the 300 odd rounds we had each of 5.56mm (speaking for me anyway).  This is all tongue in cheek of course, since our ROE's wouldn't likely have let us engage directly unless we were shot at first...and then after fair warning back.  I found it interesting that that Danes brought Leo's to Bosnia when they were blue helmeted, but we apparently couldn't as they might scare someone...

You're right of course, we'll likely get something we need after a "HOLY SH!T" S.I.R. gets sent in...and we'll get rid of it just as fast when it isn't apparently needed anymore.

MM

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Sadly for Collin P, the adoption of wheeled SP or 120mm mortars would only be considered (as an urgent requirement ) after the unit was overrun or nearly overrun in action, and given the way things work, they would probably be considered surplus and abandoned or given away after the "peacekeepers" came home to Canada.

The artillery intent for the reserve for years has been to replace the 105mm howitzers with 120mm mortars, if, had honourary colonels and parliamentary openings not gotten in the way, would have provided significant capability right now for a mission like this.

the other thing to remember about "overwhelming force" is that it doesn't need to be an armoured division.... it could simply be 1 x Hind helicopter operated by rebels. One of those would easily eliminate a Canadian combat team. A GBAD capability would be helpful in this theatre as well.

 

[Jarnhamar]

We'll need the .50Cal back

And what about bringing the RG31s back?

 

[OldSolduer]

We'll need the .50Cal back

And what about bringing the RG31s back?

I'd be happy to be a consultant on the .50

 

[Lightguns]

The artillery intent for the reserve for years has been to replace the 105mm howitzers with 120mm mortars, if, had honourary colonels and parliamentary openings not gotten in the way, would have provided significant capability right now for a mission like this.

the other thing to remember about "overwhelming force" is that it doesn't need to be an armoured division.... it could simply be 1 x Hind helicopter operated by rebels. One of those would easily eliminate a Canadian combat team. A GBAD capability would be helpful in this theatre as well.

Worked in T and E as a #1 on the 120 Mortar Project in 1986, we had a few versions of RO-120 by Hotchkiss if I recall correctly, it was French anyway, towed by the muzzle.  We used for 4 tubes and competed against 4 pack 105mm.  We were faster in battery and out, better fire, longer range.  We experimented with mounted versions in a German M113 and towed versions behind a 5/4, MUTT jeep (one for tube, one for ammo), and M113 with fitted ammo racks.  After almost a year, everything was summed up and turned in to base supply.  Beautiful weapon!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Solving the reserve arty issue would be easy if the will was there, I suspect we could totally re-equip with 105's again from the reserve stock in SK or have 120mm mortars and 105mm saluting batteries.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Solving the reserve arty issue would be easy if the will was there, I suspect we could totally re-equip with 105's again from the reserve stock in SK or have 120mm mortars and 105mm saluting batteries.

A mobile 120mm capability would be great for a mission such as Africa where manoeuvre and firepower will be essential (assuming at least). It will be interesting to see if any arty capability would be deployed with the UN force (600 pers isn't much after all) as it would also necessitate us sending our own FOO parties (as third world FOO's are unlikely to be able to do a proper call for fire and we are unlikely to accept CFF from another nation).

Honestly, I would see any arty contribution being limited to STA and GBAD (if we had some) in a shield capacity. IMHO, the M777's are likely to sit this one out, though we will see.

 

[Old Sweat]

A mobile 120mm capability would be great for a mission such as Africa where manoeuvre and firepower will be essential (assuming at least). It will be interesting to see if any arty capability would be deployed with the UN force (600 pers isn't much after all) as it would also necessitate us sending our own FOO parties (as third world FOO's are unlikely to be able to do a proper call for fire and we are unlikely to accept CFF from another nation).

Honestly, I would see any arty contribution being limited to STA and GBAD (if we had some) in a shield capacity. IMHO, the M777's are likely to sit this one out, though we will see.

I tend to agree with you, especially given the limited size. I could see a FSCC/ASCC deployed along with two or three FOO/FAC parties, perhaps a mortar group or troop and a UAV element and perhaps some other STA kit. That eats up a fair amount of spaces, however, and maybe our political masters will want a more passive posture.

 

[GK .Dundas]

I tend to agree with you, especially given the limited size. I could see a FSCC/ASCC deployed along with two or three FOO/FAC parties, perhaps a mortar group or troop and a UAV element and perhaps some other STA kit. That eats up a fair amount of spaces, however, and maybe our political masters will want a more passive posture.

I'm quite certain our political leadership want a passive role .That however is not up to them ,rather the other guy. 
Whom ever that may be depending where we end up.

 

[PuckChaser]

Passive = force pro only. I'm willing to bet it'll be some helicopters, some medics, some engineers, and a crapload of officers as "advisors".