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Russia warns U.S. over Czech missile defence base

Live by the Cold War, Die by the Cold War
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2007/06/live_by_the_cold_war_die_by_th.html

Just because Russia is against something doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea. And placing missile defenses in Eastern Europe to defend ourselves against Iran, which Russia opposes, is a bad idea -- not because it offends Russia or could start a new arms race, but because it rewards Iran.

Putting a missile defense in Europe essentially communicates to Tehran that the U.S. expects Iran to be successful in matching America as a conventional military force. It also signals that U.S. leaders are powerless to do anything but wait for that fateful day to arrive.

Finally, the missile strategy arises from the kind of Cold War thinking that we should have left behind with, well, the Cold War. Not only does it complicate relations with our allies in Europe, it's also unlikely to be effective in the new kind of war the Bush administration says we are fighting.

At the beginning of a European tour during which he plans to meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin at the G-8 summit in Germany, President Bush said, "Russia is not the enemy."

That does not mean that Russia doesn't see the United States as its enemy. Putin knows that the United States is a popular villain. What is more, the main Cold War institution -- NATO -- is still encroaching Russia's borders, reminding Russia that it is surrounded and the outsider. No wonder Putin passes up no opportunity to fan the flames.

So why does the U.S. want to throw gasoline on the fire?

Putin says that Russia will take "retaliatory steps" if the U.S. builds a planned missile defense system in the Czech Republic and Poland, redirecting Russia nuclear weapons against Europe. Vladimir, says the United States, this system is not meant to disarm Russia. It is directed at Iran.

Technically, of course, the puny system planned for Poland and the Czech Republic doesn't threaten anything in Russia. I'm not making the argument that this is just the beginning of a bigger system, or that the scientists won't eventually pull all of the pieces together to make it possible for a missile to hit a missile. Nor am I arguing that merely having missile defenses is bad because it violates the venerable rules of deterrence and mutual assured destruction.

I'm arguing instead that missile defenses are so old-think. First, Iran's ballistic missile force is hardly the most significant or pressing threat, especially when stacked up against terrorism, a Persian Gulf war, even potential WMD. Second, by the time a workable system is up and running in Europe, even if that is possible, technologies will have changed. Third, "missile defenses" connotes the very kind of passivity that the Bush administration usually decries. We are going to wait for Iran to develop an arsenal of threatening ballistic missiles to threaten Europe? The United States has a policy of preemption, supported by both parties, and it has the means of attack that makes it clear to Iran that if it wanted to lash out with conventional military force, it will be destroyed.

Which of course is why the first point is so important: Iran has no conceivable reason now or in the future to attack Europe -- and it has many other more productive ways to actually attack the United States and the West. The bottom line then is that the Bush administration, the Pentagon and the defense establishment are stuck on an old technology and an old paradigm.

Once, when we felt like we couldn't rely on diplomacy, when we felt that the nuclear threat was so great we just had to do everything we could to mitigate the threat, missile defenses may have made some sense. But now? Missile defenses exude failure and fear, defeat and a certain course to military confrontation. And since we are talking all of 10 interceptors in Poland, we are just telling the Iranians to build 11 missiles.

So not only have we signaled to the Iranians that we are afraid of them, but we have achieved the near impossible with our friends: 60 percent of Czechs are against the stationing of the missile defense radar in their country. A referendum over the weekend in a village in central Bohemia over the radar deployment ended up with a vote of 728-10 against. It remains to be seen whether the Polish government will be able to politically carry out its end of the deployments.

We have fanned the flames in Russia, complicated life for NATO members Poland and the Czech Republic, and rewarded Iran. An improvement in our defenses indeed.

By William M. Arkin |  June 5, 2007

Mark
Ottawa
 
Putting a missile defense in Europe essentially communicates to Tehran that the U.S. expects Iran to be successful in matching America as a conventional military force. It also signals that U.S. leaders are powerless to do anything but wait for that fateful day to arrive.

That is possibly the stupidest argument I've ever heard....


Matthew.  ::)

 
One has to wonder what drove the Russian general to make such a  blunt, crude threat.  Was he speaking on behalf of the Russian Govt, or was he "out of his lane" (perhaps usefully...). What would cause the Russians to suddenly lower the tone of the discussion by falling back into the old stereotype image that everybody in the West  (and in the "Near Abroad") used to have of  Russians as a bunch of crude, brutal bullies who could never quite get it right? Is there really much to be gained by threatening Europe? Wouldn't it be a lot smarter to quietly encourage public opinion in places like the Czech Republic, where the people seem to be at odds with the Govt's pro-base position? Why alienate possible support by making stupid threats that just bring back bad recent memories?

On the other hand, does the US fully understand Russian sensibilities here? Are they forgetting Russian historical paranoia about encirclement and surprise attack? What did the Bush administration think the Russian reaction would be, anyway?

Cheers
 
pbi said:
...
On the other hand, does the US fully understand Russian sensibilities here? Are they forgetting Russian historical paranoia about encirclement and surprise attack? What did the Bush administration think the Russian reaction would be, anyway?
...

Agreed.

But, I wonder if part of the US aim has not been to flush out the Russians.

Putin never had very sound democratic credentials and what few he had have been tarnished over the past few years.  Perhaps some Americans felt it was time to push them into showing their true colours.
 
Seems that Harper and Putin will meet at the G8.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070606/harper_putin_070606/20070606?hub=TopStories

The Kremlin has confirmed a meeting between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Stephen Harper today as leaders gather for the G8 Summit in Germany.

There has been no confirmation from the Prime Minister's Office, however.


EDIT: Another good link
 
Putin offers joint missile shield

President George W Bush has described as "interesting" a proposal by Russia's president for resolving the row over the planned US missile defence shield.

Vladimir Putin said their two countries could use a radar system in Azerbaijan to develop a shield covering all of Europe, during talks at the G8 summit.

Mr Putin said the base could detect incoming missiles from so-called rogue states aimed at Europe or the US.

Russia has been critical of US plans to extend the shield into central Europe.

Mr Putin has repeatedly scoffed at US claims the defence shield is targeting rogue states, and has said Moscow may in response aim its missiles at Europe.

'Common work'

But after the meeting on the fringes of the summit in Germany, the Russian leader said the threat to re-target Russian missiles could be withdrawn if Washington agreed to use the former Soviet radar base at Gabala in Azerbaijan.

This will make it possible for us not to change our stance on the targeting of our missiles
Vladimir Putin

"This will make it possible for us not to change our stance on the targeting of our missiles," Mr Putin said. "On the contrary, this will create the necessary grounds for common work."

"This work should be multi-faceted with the engagement of the states concerned in Europe."

Mr Putin added that if Washington and Moscow co-operated transparently on missile defence, "then we will have no problems".

Mr Bush said his Russian counterpart had presented some interesting suggestions and that they would discuss the issue further during two days of talks beginning on 1 July in Kennebunkport, Maine.

"We both agreed to have a strategic dialogue," he said.

"This is a serious issue."

Mr Bush's national security adviser, Stephen Hadley, said the Russian proposal was a "positive development".

He said it showed President Putin acknowledged the potential threat from rogue states and that officials from Russia and the US would sit down in the future to discuss the development of the shield.

"Let's let our experts have a look at it," Mr Hadley told reporters.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/6729751.stm

Published: 2007/06/07 16:23:13 GMT

© BBC MMVII
Shared under Fair Dealings
 
We'll be okay as long as no one proclaims peace in our time. I frankly am not sure what to make of this. My first reaction is that Putin is proposing that the site would defend against missiles from the Persian Gulf, but I would have to check a map. Is he worrying, or pretending to worry, about China?

My how to shoot down ICBMs or IRBMs theory is not up to speed. But I wonder if he is suggesting setting up a site to get the missile on its ascending trajectory. The advanatges are that the warhead, first and second stage would still be mated and make a larger target, and the missile would be accelerating. If you remember, during the first Gulf War, the Scud warheads were getting through the Patriot belt because the missile guidance system was locking on the largest bit coming down, which usually was the burnt out second stage. (The thing to look for was the 'shooting star' which streaked down and caused a shel burst effect on impact.) While not reported at the time, it was obvious to anyone who knew what to look for. This has been corrected, but the fix has not, as far as I know, been tested under battle conditions.
 
The Russians are looking for ways to get cash from the West, as well as getting a peek at how the ABM system works. I suspect that the land based system is interim, if only because fixed bases are vulnerable, expensive and provide limited geographic coverage.

The reality of rogue states selling missile and warhead technology to anyone who ponys up the cash and the number of nations which actually have some sort of missile system [for example Saudi Arabia purchased Chinese "Long March" launchers for reasons never specified] means that mobile ABM systems will be the preffered choice, things like upgraded Ageis class cruisers and Boeing 747's packing laser cannons. They can be moved around to meet evolving threats, and their mobility means the launching nation cannot be certain of the location of the ABM, making deploying countermeasures more difficult.

The logic of needing to respond rapidly to global threats means the generation after that will be based or deployed in space, like systems dating back to BAMBI and G-PALS (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Missile_Defense for a backgrounder)
 
The Gabala site was originally intended to detect incoming missiles from the Indian Ocean. It can track missiles from the southern hemisphere and much of asia. It was one of nine BMD sites. The site is probably an ecological disaster as is the case of many Russian installations. Target capacity was 350 mv. The US would have to demolish the site and install a new X band radar. Rent would have to be paid to the Azerbaijan government of course. Not an ADA expert but I think this proposal is workable.

lpar-pechora-dia-85_46-s.jpg
 
A guest-post at Daimnation!:

Layton, Dion more worried about "Star Wars" than Putin
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/009613.html

And a letter just sent to the Ottawa Sun:

Michael Harris has again let his loathing of Prime Minister Harper and President Bush overrule any concern for reality.  In his column, "PM following wrong leader" (June 8), he maintains there is no essential difference between the missiles the US plans to deploy in Poland and the missiles the US had in Turkey, and the USSR had in Cuba, in the early 1960s.
http://ottsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Harris_Michael/2007/06/08/4243730.html

That is not the case.  The American and Soviet missiles in the 60s were truly offensive.  They were equipped with nuclear warheads; the US missiles were aimed at the Soviet Union, the Soviet missiles at the US.  The missiles planned for Poland, on the other hand, are indeed defensive.  Their only purpose is to intercept other missiles in flight.  Moreover they carry no warhead at all.  They destroy their target solely with kinetic energy when they hit the incoming missile.  They would pose no threat to Russian territory.

Reference (see "Ground-Based Midcourse Defense"):
http://www.mda.mil/mdalink/html/faq.html#gmd

In fact the system planned for Poland and the Czech Republic is the ground-based midcourse one already installed in Alaska and California.
http://www.cdi.org/friendlyversion/printversion.cfm?documentID=3664#8
http://www.missilethreat.com/missiledefensesystems/id.24/system_detail.asp

Mark
Ottawa
 
In concept the new missiles destined for Poland have more in common with the ABMs that the Kremlin stationed around Moscow under the old ABM treaty.  America chose to place its old ABMs around their missile silos on the plains to guard them against a Russian strike.  The Russians figured they didn't need to guard their missiles.  They would be long gone on the first strike.  They needed to protect Moscow against the retaliatory second strike by the US.

ABMs are not new.  Neither is the positioning dance.
 
A question that's a little off topic, but I want to know this. Back in the times when the U.S. stationed nuclear weapons here in Canada, we're there any ABM here or was that technology more 'futuristic' for that time?
 
Mike Baker: Whole story of early US ABM efforts is here--nothing was ever based in Canada.
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_security/missile_defense/us-defenses-against-icbms-19581976.html
...
The original twelve possible Safeguard sites were reduced to two during ABM Treaty negotiations with the Soviet Union in 1972. For the United States, these sites were Grand Forks Air Force Base, North Dakota and Washington, D.C. In 1974, both countries signed a Protocol to the treaty reducing the permitted number of sites from two to one, with a total of one hundred interceptors. In the end, Grand Forks was the only US site ever built; it became operational on October 1, 1975.

On October 2, 1975 -- one day after the site became operational -- the House voted to inactivate Safeguard. The House decision was based on the argument that the restriction to a single ABM site combined with the recent Soviet development of MIRVs meant the system could not handle the threat. Soviet missiles with multiple warheads would overwhelm the system. This was not the only problem, however. The radars that tracked incoming missiles were extremely vulnerable: they would black out when a nuclear warhead -- including one on a US interceptor missile -- detonated. Once the radars were destroyed, the system would be electronically blind and therefore useless. Safeguard's ability to achieve even its main objective of protecting the North Dakota ICBM site was also limited by the fact that its 100 interceptor missiles were not enough to counter a determined attack.

In fact, the DOD had already reached the same conclusion and had decided in 1974 to shut down the Grand Forks site on July 1, 1976. Although the Senate initially rejected the House position, and approved Safeguard funding, once the DOD's decision was brought to their attention, they agreed to terminate the program. The bill the Senate passed in November 1975 allowed operation and testing of the site's perimeter acquisition radar but closed down the remainder of Safeguard.

It took several months for the Army to begin shutting down Safeguard, but in February 1976 -- five months after it became operational--the site was placed in caretaker status. The total cost of the Safeguard project was $5 billion -- $23 billion in current (FY-99) dollars.

The Russians still have an ABM system defending Moscow (which everyone forgets).
http://www.missilethreat.com/missiledefensesystems/id.25/system_detail.asp

Mark
Ottawa
 
Thanks Mark, I never found anything on it after searching google. I should have done that in the first place  :-[

Great link on the ABM in Moscow too.
 
Thanks from here as well Mark.  I didn't konw if the Moscow zone was still active or not.
 
There were 9 BMW sites of which only three seem to be operational. Gabala is in standby mode. The Russians lack the money to operate their missile defense system and this proposal by Putin may be a way to get the US to pay for upgrades and operational costs.
 
Interesting.  So Gabala was part of the Moscow ABM net?
 
Here are the short range interceptor locations near Moscow.

1. Lytkarino - 16 interceptors
2. Sofrino - 12 interceptors
3. Korolev - 12 interceptors
4. Skhodnya - 16 interceptors
5. Vnukovo - 12 interceptors

Long range interceptors may be at the locations noted below. Its also possible that the missiles were consolidated at two sites.The 9th Missile Div which operates these missiles are located at Naro-Fominsk-10 and Sergiyev Posad-15.

Zagorsk/Sergiyev Posad
Klin
Naro-Fominsk
Nudol

BMW site map.
daryal_radar.gif


 
How many ways can you spell "hypocrisy" in Russian?
 
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