Russia's Mistral class LHDs: updates

[Eye In The Sky]

Great dicussion.  Just adding a post so I can keep notified on new posts.

 

[George Wallace]

As someone on the coal-face in the fleet right now, I'll simply ask.

"Where do you propose to get the crew?"

We are so short of the correctly trained/qualified people (particularly Cert 3/4 Stokers) that they're pier-head jumping at a rate I've not seen before.

NS

What is the real reason that they are "pier-head jumping"?  Could it be that it is an aging and shrinking fleet that is the cause?  Would new ships not attract more to the Service than drive them away?

 

[jollyjacktar]

There are many fellows who are releasing, some in droves.  Lot's of things to irritate people as of late and which have been pointed out in other threads.  Stokers, until recently, have had the Spec pay mucked about for the past several years.  That was a major bone of contention.  There are many others as well.  For example, having two groups of Stokers working on the same Cert package at the same time, some were promoted to PO2 as was previous custom and the others remaining as MS because the custom was stopped.  They are also having trouble recruiting fresh blood into that trade and have been seeing shortfalls.  Add that to the releases and you have trouble.

For many of us, the "fun police" have made major inroads (for various reasons, and viewed as reasonable by some, not reasonable by others) in sucking the enjoyment out of being in the fleet and at sea.  There have been some here who have mentioned " death by a thousand cuts", and I know some members here are of the opinion "TFB" at those of us who are unhappy in the RCN.  Maybe so, maybe so, but nevertheless it does have an effect on the group as a whole and people leave.

 

[George Wallace]

AH!  The "Fun Police".  They hit the Army in the Mid '80's.  They successively cut and cut into every way of life in the Army and started turning a 'Dirty Job' that we could work hard and play hard in, into nothing more than a "Dirty Job". 

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I find it dumbfounding that Air Force and Army officers constantly want to redraw the Navy without having a clue.

What is this constant attempt at reducing the number of frigates (as if it was a useless ship - when it is this time's single most useful and versatile warship class in current use in ALL the world's Navies) and then turning them into coastal defence patrol boats !!!

I said it before and I will say it again: Coastal defence for countries like Canada and the USA starts thousands of nautical miles away from the coasts. Basically, the front lines of the naval defence of canada are in the Caribbean (go fasts- drug trade), in the Mediterranean sea (Arab spring - human trafficking), in the Gulf of Oman and the Indian Ocean (piracy). And the frigates and destroyers are the quintessential warriors of this defence. (besides, I dare anyone to take a look at the map of Canada and tell me where the ocean "approaches" are. It's everywhere around the country except the Prairies.) Moreover, you have to get over the Army (and to an extent Air Force) mindset that the job consists of defending a border. The role of the NAVY is to defend Canada and canadian interests on the world's oceans just as much if not more than merely preventing illegal landings on our coasts. The Navy is not primarily there to prevent armed landings, though it is one of the secondary missions.

The CTG concept was NOT born of the cold war convoy escort. It was born of the combination of the end of the cold war and the Falkland war, which showed the power of the pairing of destroyers and frigates (most famously the 22/42 and 21/42 combos of the Falkland war), and the need to provide an integrated group as the smallest "deployed" unit in order to maintain Canadian input in the command/decisions relevant to their employment. The validity of this concept (which has nothing to do with "escort work) was proven when during Gulf War I, Canada was given the command of the naval Support Area (including command over more than 40 warships from various coalition nations including the USA), the only nation other the the US to hold a Theatre level command.

And, no, task groups (or whole navies) are NOT and don't have to be built around a "heart" that they defend. A CTG is a useful and suitable group as is right now and it does let us punch above our weight, as demonstrated. A destroyer as command ship is ample enough. Admiral's staffs at sea are not sprawling affairs like shore based HQ's. Staffs of about twenty to twenty-five, which let the Admiral call upon eight to ten staffer on watch at all time are more than sufficient to command and control quite large naval formations.

Mistrals would be useful ships, and yes, they would be excellent national assets that would provide a greater capacity for combined operations (I use combined instead of joint for a very specific reason: IMO "joint" in Canada as been distorted to mean "operational support of the Army by the Air Force and Navy, under the command of the Army and for its land purpose only" or "Geographical command by a single commander over everything in the specified area [an Army approach], instead of a functional approach [Air Force's preference] or a mixed Functional/Geographic approach [the Navy's preference]).

Now, as far as the Mistral's are concerned, I see little problems with the conversion that would be necessary for their employment by Canada. As already indicated going to 110v from 220v is relatively easy: no need to make any changes for fitted equipment. As for general service, the wiring is probably sufficient, and it is just a matter of locally inserting step down transformers and frequency rectifiers, together with new fuse panels and plugs. The "electronics", that is comms and radars, were to be installed in Russia after arrival from France, as were the weapons and weapons systems. So they only carry Merchant navy minimal electronics at this stage and we can do the installation of whatever we may want upon arrival in canada. As for their defensive weapons, we have six CIWS on hand and countless .50 cal. from the decommissioned destroyers and AORS. That is sufficient.

OGBD,

You'll get no argument from me.  I don't profess to be an expert on Naval Affairs, I am merely interested in the political aspects of this discussion as I believe that is where our real money is made.  You'll notice I didn't really talk about kit specific stuff, doctrine or TTPs in any of my posts. 

Quite honestly I don't really care about that stuff, granted as a soldier the capabilities themselves interest me from a professional standpoint.  taking off my soldier hat for a second and putting on my politik hat I find myself asking the question:  Is this a capability we need to invest in or am I better off investing in my other levers of national power?

As military professionals we are easily able to describe what these capabilities (which from a purely military standpoint are excellent to have) can do for us.  That's not the issue though as we don't need to convince ourselves.  Our issue is convincing the government and ordinary Canadians that these capabilities would be worth having over say more funding to DFATD for instance?

Military power is but one facet of national power, it's up to us to make a business case to the government on why we should develop and maintain an ability to quickly invade a reasonably sized country over simply paying said country to shut its mouth and do what we tell it to do.

 

[CougarKing]

  As for having the capability at hand.  Yes, it's hard to know (unless you have a crystal ball) when you might need it.  Humanitarian lifts such as Katrina or Haiti come all of a sudden.  We should have the ability to respond as needed.  We no longer have our AOR lift possibilities such as it was.  And this is why I say we could "use" the ability.  We just can't afford it with the allowance Mum and Dad give us.

Meanwhile, someone else is developing this capability on their own:

China unveils LHD design

If the Mistrals aren't delivered, perhaps Russia might buy from China in the future.

 

[George Wallace]

Military power is but one facet of national power, it's up to us to make a business case to the government on why we should develop and maintain an ability to quickly invade a reasonably sized country over simply paying said country to shut its mouth and do what we tell it to do.

On the other hand, strategically thinking we need a strong and capable Navy, Army and Airforce, though not necessarily large land, sea and air forces, to maintain our nation status in world and current affairs.  If we do not, we become too "Isolationist" and easy prey to outside forces.  By maintaining only the 'minimal' capabilities we will be unable to defend our borders effectively.  We need to do better so that we can defend our borders/air space/territorial waters with enough resources in reserve to supplement those tasks, and still provide a capability to extend resources to supplement our allies on foreign missions.  There is no requirement, as pointed out by previous Canadian statesmen, for Canada to become a "Super Power".  There is a fear, though, that we will soon lose our position as a "Middle Power" through our successive tendency to let our various fleets to rust out and degrade.  Strategically, the Navy has just as important a role as any other element of the CAF and needs more attention paid to it than has been paid over the past several decades. 

 

[Stoker]

If the Minstral's were offered to us at a sale price I would definitely support getting them. The power requirements, could be mitigated quite easily. Its a capability that we could utilize quite effectively as a command and control platform and form the nucleus of a all Canadian task force. They could be used in disaster relief and, drug interdiction that we often go on and more importantly they could be used a refueling platform for the ship's we send to the Arctic, where getting fuel is problematic.

Remember when we could put a task force to sea?

 

[Navy_Pete]

I'd be more excited about the prospect of getting LHDs if we had enough resources to support our current fleet.

Currently we don't have the resources to properly support our existing fleet, and that won't change.  Money aside, if you take a look at the crit manning messages, every time any ship goes to sea there seem to be the same positions they always need to fill to get out the door.  That's not something you can fix over night, and getting yet another class of ship would make it harder.  From what I remember from a presentation on the Mistrals years ago from someone in the French Navy is that the min rank on the crew is the equivalent to a MS; their crewing philosophy is different from ours in that you show up fully trained.  Not sure how we would adapt to that one.

The other issue is simple jetty space; it's getting pretty crowded right now in Halifax and Esq; they don't really have room right now for the AOPs until they get rid of the 280s and tankers.  Going to be really tight once JSS comes in, so not even sure where you would put LHDs if we somehow got everything else sorted.

 

[Stoker]

I'd be more excited about the prospect of getting LHDs if we had enough resources to support our current fleet.

Currently we don't have the resources to properly support our existing fleet, and that won't change.  Money aside, if you take a look at the crit manning messages, every time any ship goes to sea there seem to be the same positions they always need to fill to get out the door.  That's not something you can fix over night, and getting yet another class of ship would make it harder.  From what I remember from a presentation on the Mistrals years ago from someone in the French Navy is that the min rank on the crew is the equivalent to a MS; their crewing philosophy is different from ours in that you show up fully trained.  Not sure how we would adapt to that one.

The other issue is simple jetty space; it's getting pretty crowded right now in Halifax and Esq; they don't really have room right now for the AOPs until they get rid of the 280s and tankers.  Going to be really tight once JSS comes in, so not even sure where you would put LHDs if we somehow got everything else sorted.

Pete its funny that all those extra sailors they say they have with the 280's and the tankers going down, where exactly are they? I know on the Kingston Class their home units are are constantly looking for their guys back.

If they did get the LHD's, I would imagine money would have to be spent rebuilding the jetty down by MARLANT where the Bonnie used to tie up.

End state its wishful thinking we would get them, perhaps if Rick Hillier was still CDS, not under the current leadership that's for sure.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

There is Allso the carrier jetty in Shearwater.

Hmmm.... I wonder why they named it that?

 

[Stoker]

There is Allso the carrier jetty in Shearwater.

Hmmm.... I wonder why they named it that?

Yes but who wants to go alongside in Shearwater ;D

 

[jollyjacktar]

If they did get the LHD's, I would imagine money would have to be spent rebuilding the jetty down by MARLANT where the Bonnie used to tie up.

That Jetty will be rebuilt and is where the AOPS will go.  The brief time (sadly) we flirted with going Amphib, the embryo unit was stood up at Shearwater and were they would have berthed.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Yes but who wants to go alongside in Shearwater ;D

Having spent time on both sides, I always thought Shearwater was the better of the 2.  Especially when you live in the Passage.  5 min drive to work, no bridge, ample parking!

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I'd be more excited about the prospect of getting LHDs if we had enough resources to support our current fleet.

Currently we don't have the resources to properly support our existing fleet, and that won't change.  Money aside, if you take a look at the crit manning messages, every time any ship goes to sea there seem to be the same positions they always need to fill to get out the door.  That's not something you can fix over night, and getting yet another class of ship would make it harder.  From what I remember from a presentation on the Mistrals years ago from someone in the French Navy is that the min rank on the crew is the equivalent to a MS; their crewing philosophy is different from ours in that you show up fully trained.  Not sure how we would adapt to that one.

The other issue is simple jetty space; it's getting pretty crowded right now in Halifax and Esq; they don't really have room right now for the AOPs until they get rid of the 280s and tankers.  Going to be really tight once JSS comes in, so not even sure where you would put LHDs if we somehow got everything else sorted.

On the other hand, it is possible a new class of ship might attract folks to the Navy, like new tanks might have attracted people to the army. 

 

[midget-boyd91]

On the other hand, it is possible a new class of ship might attract folks to the Navy, like new tanks might have attracted people to the army.

Or you know, daily rum rations. Traditions are making a comeback afterall...

 

[Navy_Pete]

Pete its funny that all those extra sailors they say they have with the 280's and the tankers going down, where exactly are they? I know on the Kingston Class their home units are are constantly looking for their guys back.

If they did get the LHD's, I would imagine money would have to be spent rebuilding the jetty down by MARLANT where the Bonnie used to tie up.

End state its wishful thinking we would get them, perhaps if Rick Hillier was still CDS, not under the current leadership that's for sure.

I think a lot of them already swapped over to the frigates, and then there is a holding crew for normal maintenance and disposal activities, even after they get paid off.  Until the ships are actually turned over to the winning breaker yard in a few years, there will still be a skeleton crew of some sort (maybe a pool for the ships on each coast?)  No idea where the operators etc go, but they were already down to effectively two crews and a bit for three 280s when I got posted to the NCR four years ago.  A lot of the PO1s and PO2s I sailed with retired though.

Funny thing, with the AOPs and JSS, none of them are direct crew transfers.  They don't have enough techs to spread out among six AOPs from the three 280s, and there are a number of trades that don't exist at all on the non combatants.  They may end up fat on some of the ops room types but scrambling for roundskeepers; going to be interesting.  So even though there are more billets on the five old ships being paid off then in the new AOPS and JSSs, you can't just take the crews and spread them into the new ships.

Fortunately that's the problem of a whole team of people figuring it out somewhere in the pers world!  With the hundreds of thousands of individual parts that make up a ship, the engineering world will be busy enough making sure all the demil/CG stuff goes well.

 

[Stoker]

I think a lot of them already swapped over to the frigates, and then there is a holding crew for normal maintenance and disposal activities, even after they get paid off.  Until the ships are actually turned over to the winning breaker yard in a few years, there will still be a skeleton crew of some sort (maybe a pool for the ships on each coast?)  No idea where the operators etc go, but they were already down to effectively two crews and a bit for three 280s when I got posted to the NCR four years ago.  A lot of the PO1s and PO2s I sailed with retired though.

Funny thing, with the AOPs and JSS, none of them are direct crew transfers.  They don't have enough techs to spread out among six AOPs from the three 280s, and there are a number of trades that don't exist at all on the non combatants.  They may end up fat on some of the ops room types but scrambling for roundskeepers; going to be interesting.  So even though there are more billets on the five old ships being paid off then in the new AOPS and JSSs, you can't just take the crews and spread them into the new ships.

Fortunately that's the problem of a whole team of people figuring it out somewhere in the pers world!  With the hundreds of thousands of individual parts that make up a ship, the engineering world will be busy enough making sure all the demil/CG stuff goes well.

There are definitely going to be caretaker crews, especially on ships still in use such as the tanker. A lot of these billets are going to PCC and be sent as out required. 60 positions or so going to the Kingston Class. We are training bodies as quick as we can, however it takes time. In the Mar Eng world, I'm training as fast as I can, and speeding up the training to the young guys. makes for interesting times.

 

[blacktriangle]

Are the beer machines still on the ships?

That's far more important than us getting LHD's.

 

[Pelorus]

Are the beer machines still on the ships?

That's far more important than us getting LHD's.

They were removed as part of the new RCN Conduct Policy.