Sea Service Insignia (SSI) [Merged]

[Halifax Tar]

I respect your position but don't agree with it. I see no problem with showing how sea time you actually have, in fact it may have the effect of people wanting to sail just to get to that extra level, its an incentive.  I do agree that sea pay should be higher though.

And I yours Chief!  :cheers:

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

It's a hard one, but my problem is that there can be no real understanding of either the sacrifice made nor the quality of the seaman.

Let me explain:Is the "sacrifice" of a LS who is single, 24 years old, in the service for six years wearing a bronze SSI the same "sacrifice" as that of a MSEO Lcdr married, three children, in the service for 12 years also awarded a bronze SSI?

And, is a LS awarded the silver SSI better than a PO2 only wearing the bronze SSI? What if the LS has been in the service for 20 years and just happen not to be promotable past that level, while the PO2 is a "go-getter" who made it to his level on excellent leadership and trade knowledge in 12 years?

And sea time in and of itself does not amount to anything in terms of recognizing capability of the seaman. I know very smart cookies who could be run through MARS III and IV six times in a row and still wouldn't be able to navigate or handle a ship. On the other hand, I know OSER that can grasp their engineering to a level commensurate with a LS/MS after a single year at sea. They just "get" naval engineering.

BTW, for comparison sake here, with the definition we use for "days at sea", your average merchant seaman would qualify for gun metal in 13 months, bronze in four years and 9 months, silver in 7 years and gold in 9 years and 4 months. Since the merchies average career is 35 years at sea, they would all make triple gold and more. We should just keep that in mind and not let our SSI levels go to our heads too much.  ;D

 

[Stoker]

It's a hard one, but my problem is that there can be no real understanding of either the sacrifice made nor the quality of the seaman.

Let me explain:Is the "sacrifice" of a LS who is single, 24 years old, in the service for six years wearing a bronze SSI the same "sacrifice" as that of a MSEO Lcdr married, three children, in the service for 12 years also awarded a bronze SSI?

And, is a LS awarded the silver SSI better than a PO2 only wearing the bronze SSI? What if the LS has been in the service for 20 years and just happen not to be promotable past that level, while the PO2 is a "go-getter" who made it to his level on excellent leadership and trade knowledge in 12 years?

And sea time in and of itself does not amount to anything in terms of recognizing capability of the seaman. I know very smart cookies who could be run through MARS III and IV six times in a row and still wouldn't be able to navigate or handle a ship. On the other hand, I know OSER that can grasp their engineering to a level commensurate with a LS/MS after a single year at sea. They just "get" naval engineering.

BTW, for comparison sake here, with the definition we use for "days at sea", your average merchant seaman would qualify for gun metal in 13 months, bronze in four years and 9 months, silver in 7 years and gold in 9 years and 4 months. Since the merchies average career is 35 years at sea, they would all make triple gold and more. We should just keep that in mind and not let our SSI levels go to our heads too much.  ;D

I personally wouldn't use it to describe how smart you are or how much of a go getter you are. If you use the SSI as a measure of the sailor or member then you are foolish.The SSI wasn't for that purpose at all. The comparison with the merchants with their accommodations, and superior QOL is not much of a comparison either.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I personally wouldn't use it to describe how smart you are or how much of a go getter you are. If you use the SSI as a measure of the sailor or member then you are foolish.The SSI wasn't for that purpose at all. The comparison with the merchants with their accommodations, and superior QOL is not much of a comparison either.

This is great in theory.  But it doesn't and didn't work that way in application and operation.  We have things that denote ones experience, leadership and accomplishments, its called ranks and medals.  The SSI has just muddied those waters.

Its not so bad for us Loggies, you guys mostly know we don't spend our careers with the RCN; but some of your hard sea brethren can be very snide and underhanded to those that hold the ranks of MS and above and have what is considered a lesser shade of SSI.

 

[Stoker]

This is great in theory.  But it doesn't and didn't work that way in application and operation.  We have things that denote ones experience, leadership and accomplishments, its called ranks and medals.  The SSI has just muddied those waters.

Its not so bad for us Loggies, you guys mostly know we don't spend our careers with the RCN; but some of your hard sea brethren can be very snide and underhanded to those that hold the ranks of MS and above and have what is considered a lesser shade of SSI.

I guess that could be said of any incentive such as the FORCE test or even medals. I have well excess of 2100 sea days, but only have a CD1 and Operation service, I'm sure people will say they're better than me because they a bigger rack of medals. I think your are correct that to a certain extent it had muddied the waters but I se it has merit and not need to be scrapped.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I guess that could be said of any incentive such as the FORCE test or even medals. I have well excess of 2100 sea days, but only have a CD1 and Operation service, I'm sure people will say they're better than me because they a bigger rack of medals. I think your are correct that to a certain extent it had muddied the waters but I se it has merit and not need to be scrapped.

The Force test is required for you/me/us to maintain employment with the CAF.  Different ball of wax, IMHO.

I don't want to come off as harsh here Chief, but that 2100 days towards your SSI tells me you have 2100 days doing your sea going job.  Your OSM, CD1 and rank tells me you have lots and lots of experience and you probably know what your talking so I will defer to you as a SME, this is what I put weight into.

People who judge others simply by "racks" are inexperienced themselves and lack a view of the bigger picture.

 

[Stoker]

The Force test is required for you/me/us to maintain employment with the CAF.  Different ball of wax, IMHO.

I don't want to come off as harsh here Chief, but that 2100 days towards your SSI tells me you have 2100 days doing your sea going job.  Your OSM, CD1 and rank tells me you have lots and lots of experience and you probably know what your talking so I will defer to you as a SME, this is what I put weight into.

People who judge others simply by "racks" are inexperienced themselves and lack a view of the bigger picture.

I agree that people should never judge but it does happen and seems to happen here on a daily basis on the way we choose to do business in the RCN. Its the way society is and we are a refection of that society. Bottom line I appreciate what the SSI brings us despite the downsides to it.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Sorry if I did not express myself properly, Chief.

I did not mean to intimate that the SSI is an indicator of competence be it in one's trade or as a leader. On the contrary, it was meant to illustrate that it doesn't indicate such thing, but that, even for what it supposedly meant to illustrate, i.e. the sacrifice of being at sea, it doesn't work. Here's a further example from my past.

You yourself quoted from the RCN's position: The SSI is meant to (my underlining in yellow):

"The SSI is a visible and formal recognition of the time the navy's sailors, as well as members of the army and air force who sail on HMC Ships, spend at sea, away from their homes and loved ones. It is a way of saying "thank you" to all those who have spent significant amounts of time away from their homes and families in service to the Canadian Navy"

Now, unless they have changed their definition, isn't a day at sea defined as any time spent at sea of more than eight hours in a row in any given day?

Many moons ago, when I served in THUNDER, we trained all the new PB crew members coming into the division for two months in winter. We were sailing every morning from about 10 minutes before eight (to avoid colours  ;D) to about 17h00 back alongside D-Jetty in Esquimalt. Under today's system, that would be 45 days toward your SSI. What's the hardship? Where is the time away from "homes and families"?

Now, how about the Naval reservist, 30 years old - married with two young kids, from Winnipeg, who finally managed to rustle up three months of unpaid leave from his employer so he could go on a long course in Halifax for career progression? Under the current system, he gets no time whatsoever toward a SSI level. Yet, he is definitely away from "homes and families". Same goes of the Halifax based Regular Force member sent for three months on a course in Victoria on attach posting.

See the problem: where do you stop, and what does it really represent?

That's all I am saying. 

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I always thought the SSI was stupid and devisive.

And some of the RCAF routinely sails, too. 

(Says the guy who has somewhere between 750-1000 sea days, if I cared enough to insist my already overworked clerks drop what they are doing and conduct an audit for me. I have no idea what colour that  entitles me and don't really care.)

 

[Stoker]

Sorry if I did not express myself properly, Chief.

I did not mean to intimate that the SSI is an indicator of competence be it in one's trade or as a leader. On the contrary, it was meant to illustrate that it doesn't indicate such thing, but that, even for what it supposedly meant to illustrate, i.e. the sacrifice of being at sea, it doesn't work. Here's a further example from my past.

You yourself quoted from the RCN's position: The SSI is meant to (my underlining in yellow):

"The SSI is a visible and formal recognition of the time the navy's sailors, as well as members of the army and air force who sail on HMC Ships, spend at sea, away from their homes and loved ones. It is a way of saying "thank you" to all those who have spent significant amounts of time away from their homes and families in service to the Canadian Navy"

Now, unless they have changed their definition, isn't a day at sea defined as any time spent at sea of more than eight hours in a row in any given day?

Many moons ago, when I served in THUNDER, we trained all the new PB crew members coming into the division for two months in winter. We were sailing every morning from about 10 minutes before eight (to avoid colours  ;D) to about 17h00 back alongside D-Jetty in Esquimalt. Under today's system, that would be 45 days toward your SSI. What's the hardship? Where is the time away from "homes and families"?

Now, how about the Naval reservist, 30 years old - married with two young kids, from Winnipeg, who finally managed to rustle up three months of unpaid leave from his employer so he could go on a long course in Halifax for career progression? Under the current system, he gets no time whatsoever toward a SSI level. Yet, he is definitely away from "homes and families". Same goes of the Halifax based Regular Force member sent for three months on a course in Victoria on attach posting.

See the problem: where do you stop, and what does it really represent?

That's all I am saying.

End of the day we are mandated to wear it and I like the fact the more junior sailors get something to wear and be proud of. Some like it and some don't, and yes it is for the people who sail not the people who come out on training or courses.  You can talk about all kinds of situations where it doesn't represent the intent the RCN had when it was created such as courses and what not. Obviously you can't please everyone.

 

[jollyjacktar]

You could start by making it optional dress for those of us who'd rather not instead of mandatory.  Those who wish to wear it, please continue to do so with my respect.  But I'd be happier opting out, given the choice.

 

[NavalMoose]

I don't understand the strong (negative) feelings towards the SSI expressed by some here. It's not like we are going the Yank route where a gold SSI would probably equate to an arm full of chevrons and several gongs.

 

[FSTO]

I'm rather agnostic about the whole thing. I remember my first time in the Halifax Wardroom and seeing the portraits of Senior Officers and you could tell when the WWII/Korean War generation retired. From a chest full of medals to a CD with clasp all by itself. Those guys really went through the decades of darkness.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I don't understand the strong (negative) feelings towards the SSI expressed by some here. It's not like we are going the Yank route where a gold SSI would probably equate to an arm full of chevrons and several gongs.

Obviously you've missed out on witnessing the dick measuring contests and attitudes some members exhibited with the SSI.  It was disappointing to watch and only increased my desire to distance myself from it.  I personally don't like all the flare that is creeping up on our uniforms.  The 1812 pin was enough for me and the straw that broke this camel's back.  I just want my name, rank, medals/ribbons and trade badge (pre amalgamation) on my uniform, thank you very much.  It shouldn't be hard to grasp the concept.

 

[NavalMoose]

Yes, I had been out of the Navy 8 years when they started handing out the SSI, so I probably did miss certain "measurement" contests etc

 

[Navy_Pete]

Obviously you've missed out on witnessing the dick measuring contests and attitudes some members exhibited with the SSI.  It was disappointing to watch and only increased my desire to distance myself from it.  I personally don't like all the flare that is creeping up on our uniforms.  The 1812 pin was enough for me and the straw that broke this camel's back.  I just want my name, rank, medals/ribbons and trade badge (pre amalgamation) on my uniform, thank you very much.  It shouldn't be hard to grasp the concept.

One of the funniest ones I overheard was at an NTO mess dinner.  There was a new Lt(N) with a gun metal SSI (when it was still 365 days) bugging some post HOD MSEOs that didn't have one.  Someone overheard this and pointed out that the reason he had so many sea days was because he took 19 months to finish his ph 6 OJT (scheduled for 12 or less) and almost two years for his HOD qual (again, another 12 month OJT).  He shut up pretty quickly at that point, particularly and the discussion changed to how early other had got it done. He slunk off somewhere at that point...  ;D

For some of the officer trades, anything higher than a gun metal in the current generation is almost a red flag if someone wasn't either an NCM previously or went to sea training, so it's weird that way.  You can spend both one year OJT postings and your HOD tour on high tempo ships and still come no where near to the bronze.  I personally don't really care one way or the other about the SSI, but thought that was a pretty funny exchange.

I guess the one nice thing is that it gives the odd sailor that is always the deployment bridesmaid but does a lot of sailing something to show for it.  There was one guy that comes to mind that had well over 1500 days but because he had basically always been posted to the same ship for 12 years, and happened to be on a career course both times it deployed in it's cycle; he only had the silver SSI and a CD.  Probably an outlier but at least made for an interesting story, as he had done half a dozen WUPs, every exercise on the east coast a few times, and three full sets of TRPs so had a lot of really useful experience.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I disagree. It's not just about doing your job, it's about all the time and sacrifice that goes with doing your job in the Navy. Being away at sea is not like being in the field. The Army goes to the field for exercises; we go to sea for trials (oh god, the trials...), work ups, support to trg courses, support to OGDs, exercises, SARs, operations, and full-blown deployments. All of these, from the minor ones to the major ones, take us away from our families and our daily routines.

If you're lucky, you get rotated around between high-tempo units, low-temp units, and shore postings; but if you're unlucky, you get posted to high-tempo ship after high-tempo ship and end up spend 200+ days each year at sea for several years on end. Does the Army do that? Does the Air Force do that?

From another perspective, we also take our time at sea much more seriously than the Army does. Let me put it this way: has anyone in the Navy ever seen members of the ship's company landed during a major training exercise so that they could practice and compete in a regional military Hockey tournament? The Army has...

I think I am justified in saying the mission end of the Air Force goes pretty hard at it and I'm typing this from a different country.  Again.  I was home less than 1 week from being away from home and Canada.  The mission end of the Air Force is busy.  And the navy.  Army?  There is a place called Latvia that I recall going 24/7.

As an ex green DEU guy, I know guys who spent equal time as me and the 200 day sae time sailors you are talking about in Petersville.  Away from home is away from home. 

I think your brush was a little wide and particularly harsh on the army.  I will take 2 week on a ship over a night in a night OP on winter ex at -30.  The whole don't knock it to you try it think.  ;D

The list of things the navy does at sea, if you don't think the army also does similar things for similar reasons in the field you have never been in a training area very much or took a boo at DRSOs and monitored a range control net.  Trg areas can be very busy places. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I guess that could be said of any incentive such as the FORCE test or even medals. I have well excess of 2100 sea days, but only have a CD1 and Operation service, I'm sure people will say they're better than me because they a bigger rack of medals. I think your are correct that to a certain extent it had muddied the waters but I se it has merit and not need to be scrapped.

My father retired a WO with 28 years in and a CD1.  Later he received his SSM NATO for his time in Germany when he was an airframe tech on the Clunks back in the 50s.

I am sure some people might see him on Remembrance Day and think he didn't do much.  If they asked they'd find out he had over 13000 hours in his logbook from his years on the Argus doing VP stuff during the Cold War and risked, sacrificed and served just as much as anyone else who lived and breathed on the pointy end.

He taught me there is no such thing as just CD1.  The people he worked with knew he was one of the best, respected and trusted Engineers in the fleet and that's what he really cared about; his name and credibility amongst peers.

 

[Stoker]

My father retired a WO with 28 years in and a CD1.  Later he received his SSM NATO for his time in Germany when he was an airframe tech on the Clunks back in the 50s.

I am sure some people might see him on Remembrance Day and think he didn't do much.  If they asked they'd find out he had over 13000 hours in his logbook from his years on the Argus doing VP stuff during the Cold War and risked, sacrificed and served just as much as anyone else who lived and breathed on the pointy end.

He taught me there is no such thing as just CD1.  The people he worked with knew he was one of the best, respected and trusted Engineers in the fleet and that's what he really cared about; his name and credibility amongst peers.

I agree I just mentioned my experience as an example. Good story though.

 

[Lumber]

I think your brush was a little wide and particularly harsh on the army.  I will take 2 week on a ship over a night in a night OP on winter ex at -30.  The whole don't knock it to you try it think.  ;D

And I would take 2 weeks in the field in the winter over being sea-sicking but still having to work 18 hrs a day... potato/patatoe.

Everything else you said; yes, I concede I was being overly generalistic and hyperbolic... still grinds my gears that soldiers get weeks or a whole month of work to compete in sports tournaments...