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Segregation Pre-Unification

Ex-SHAD

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Prior to Unification, was there any form of official segregation in the Canadian Army, Royal Canadian Navy or Royal Canadian Air Force?

The few incidents of segregation that I’m aware of:

During the First World War, there was an official policy that non-whites were not allowed to serve in combat, and instead were assigned to labor battalions.

Non-white ratings were restricted to stokers, trimmers and greasers (until I believe the 1920’s).

 
The "Black Battalion" of the CEF was probably less a matter of intentional segregation than it was of the recruiting approach to attract soldiers with established common backgrounds, whether that be hometown, family affiliation to "local regiments", or by trade.

Examples of black soldiers serving outside that unit can be found.


 
Obituary; Sydney Morgan Jones

http://www.learnquebec.ca/en/content/curriculum/social_sciences/features/missingpages/unit5/u5p112.htm

Last of black N.S. veterans
wounded at Passchendaele

Canadian Press
HALIFAX -- Nova Scotia's last surviving black veteran of the First World War has died.
    Sydney Morgan Jones, one of the 16 blacks who enlisted in the 106th Battalion, Nova Scotia Rifles, died Monday in the Camp Hill Medical Centre. He was 94.
    "I would describe him as being a very intelligent person who had a lot of wisdom," said Calvin Ruck, a military historian and author who often interviewed Mr. Jones.
    Born and educated in Truro, Mr. Jones left school to enlist when he was 17. While serving as a member of the Royal Canadian Regiment, he was wounded at Passchendaele, Belgium, during the third battle of Ypres.
    The regiment honoured him with a special presentation in 1990. He was awarded the Canada Medal this year by the Royal Canadian Legion.
    Mr. Jones was a senior Baptist deacon at the time of his death. He also held various positions with the African United Baptist Association of Nova Scotia and was a member of the Nova Scotia Association for the advancement of Coloured People.
 
Ex-SHAD said:
During the First World War, there was an official policy that non-whites were not allowed to serve in combat, and instead were assigned to labor battalions.

???

Please link me to this "Official Policy".

I am aware that there was reluctance to allowing these soldiers to serve with whites, but am not aware of any official policy (or other) that actually did "limit" these brave men to service in a segregated Unit. Obviously debunked by the fact that many of them did serve in non-segregated Units; ergo, though it may have been discouraged --- no policy held them to service in only segregated Units (Units that did exist).

Seymour Tyler

My note: Seymour Tyler also went on to reinlist as soon as Britain declared war (WWII) on Germany in the Carleton and York Regiment. I remember my own father's sorrow at his passing (he was a member of the Br 93 Oromocto Legion) and our cadet corps observing silence for him upon his death while I was in high school.

FREDERICTON (CP) -
When the Carleton and York Veterans Association holds its reunion here on Saturday, an unobtrusive little black man will know the satisfaction of work well done.
    Seymour Tyler, president of this year's reunion committee, has known soldiering since the First World War and still is active at 78. A native of Saint John, N.B. he was born Feb. 22, 1897.
    "When the First World War came along, I quit school and enlisted," he said.
    "I landed in an outfit that was trained as infantry and could also handle most construction jobs (my note: 2 Construction Bn?? - a segregated Unit). We landed in Liverpool after a crossing that took 21 days. We went first to Seaforth, then to Folkestone and soon crossed to Boulogne and went right up to the front. I was later wounded at Vimy Ridge."

Pte Jerry Jones

A "D.C.M." For A Truro Soldier
  A BLACK KNIGHT
PTE. JERRY JONES, FORD ST., RUNS IN BUNCH OF HUNS - CAPTURES THEIR MACHINE GUN - FACETIOUSLY HANDS M.G. OVER TO HIS C.O.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Has been recommended for distinguished conduct medal- what a truro offiser in England writes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We believe the well-known, industrious and highly respected Truro colored man. Pte. Jerry Jones, a resident of Ford Street, who went overseas with the 106th Battalion, has scored a big hit hi his scraps with the Huns at the front. When Jerry Jones joined the 106th under Col. Innis, he was a strapping big fellow,-- a fine looking soldier;--he took a humble position; playd his part well; went overseas; volunteered for the battlefield and has been a terror to the treacherous German on more than one occasion. He was lately wounded in action and is just recovering and nobly getting redy for his "bit" again. He has shown himself a patriot: brave, powerful and resourceful: and was under and he has been recommended for the Distinguished Conduct Medal.
    ...

        Word comes from those heroes, who are daily arriving in English hospitals of numerous acts of bravery on the part of our boys from home, many of which should be rewarded with V.C.'s but will never reach beyond the eyes of those who are now past recording such events. One of the humble citizens of Truro, always an honest, hard-working man was reported wounded several weeks ago. I last saw him in Bramshott in January before he had gone to France; had a few words with him; next heard he had been wounded and only today, from one of the lads from hospital, who was with him at the time did I hear the complete story of how "JERRY JONES"  had captured a German machine gun, forced the crew to carry it back to our lines, and, depositing it at the feet of the C.O. said;-

"Is this thing any good?"

    (Isn't that like our big, honest, witty Jerry?"--Ed. News.)
    The report is that he has been recommended for a D.C.M. I hope it is true. All honor to this man, who is ready for the front again!
    May he live to return to Truro and receive the welcome he deserves.

    We are glad for these encouraging lines for the boys from a Military Camp in England and the thoughtful writer need never fear but what if "Jerry Jones" returns to Truro with a D.C.M. he'll be the lion of the hour. We here can all see that great big colord man, on the battlefield, without a word of German in his Ford Street Vernacular order those cowardly Huns to pack up their machine gun and march to the British lines! Well, done, Jerry.

 
The liklihood of a black person being accepted into the CEF in the first 2 years of the war was close to nil.  Racism was simply part of the system with colonels having final authority on the matter.  I read a letter which I can't find from a colonel to Sam Hughes asking to get rid of his black recruits out of respect to his good white recruits.

http://www.dacosta400.ca/cavalcade/battalion.shtml

The one black WWI veteran I knew was conscripted and served in a regular unit.  Mind you that was in 1918.
 
Dennis Ruhl said:
The liklihood of a black person being accepted into the CEF in the first 2 years of the war was close to nil.  Racism was simply part of the system with colonels having final authority on the matter.  I read a letter which I can't find from a colonel to Sam Hughes asking to get rid of his black recruits out of respect to his good white recruits.

http://www.dacosta400.ca/cavalcade/battalion.shtml

The one black WWI veteran I knew was conscripted and served in a regular unit.  Mind you that was in 1918.

As the recruiting was done by the individual Militia units in those days, there would likely have not been any "National Policy" but left to the discretion of the unit Commanding Officers.  Whether or not a person would be accepted would most likely be dictated by the local biases of the time.  These prejudices were not firmly fixed on colour/race, but also on Religion, nationality, language, etc.  So depending on what part of the country one was in, their chances of being recruited would vary. 
 
No - the whole works were racist.  You sound like a bunch of white guys sitting around the spitoon congratulating yourselves on how tolerant you are.

http://www.alts.net/ns1625/conbat2a.html

Chief of the General Staff
13 April 1916
Memorandum on the
enlistment of Negroes in
Canadian Expeditionary Force

1.  Nothing is to be gained by blinking facts.  The civilized negro is vain and imitative; in Canada he is not being impelled to enlist by a high sense of duty; in the trenches he is not likely to make a good fighter; and the average white man will not associate with him on terms of equality.  Not a single commanding officer in Military District No. 2 is willing to accept a coloured platoon as part of his battalion (H.Q. 297-1-29); and it would be humiliating to the coloured men themselves to serve in a battalion where they were not wanted.

2.  In France, in the firing line, there is no place for a black battalion, C.E.F.  It would be eyed askance; it would crowd out a white battalion; and it would be difficult to re-inforce.

3.  Nor could it be left in England and used as a draft-giving depot; for there would be trouble if negroes were sent to the front for the purpose of reinforcing white battalions; and, if they are any good at all, they would resent being kept in Canada for the purpose of finding guards, etc.

4.  It seems, therefore, that three courses are practicable:

      (a) As at present, to allow Negroes to enlist, individually, into white battalions at the discretion of commanding officers.

      (b) To allow them to form one or more labour battalions.  Negroes from Nova Scotia, for example, would not be unsuitable for the purpose.

      (c) To ask the British Government if it can make use of a black battalion, C.E.F., on special duty overseas (e.g. in Egypt): but the battalion will not be ready before the fall, and, if only on account of its relatively extravagant rates of pay, it will not mix well with other troops.

5.  I recommend courses (a) and (b).

W. Gwatkin
Major-General
Chief of the General Staff
13.4.16
— Original in Public Archives of Canada, Ottawa 

 
Dennis Ruhl said:
No - the whole works were racist.  You sound like a bunch of white guys sitting around the spitoon congratulating yourselves on how tolerant you are.

Be careful with what you're implying of the membership here.

Milnet.ca Staff
 
From this thread on the CEF Study Group:

There were a few black soldiers scattered across the CEF in combat roles, the 1st CMMGB had one or two.

About thirty Blacks served in the 26th (NB) Battalion at the front.

Also here:

Other units had black men. For example, I have a photo of a man in the 41st, a Montréal battalion. I bet Toronto and other Nova Scotia units had a few black men here and there. I'd like to hear about more.

I'm curious why Charles wasn't in the No 2 Constuction Battalion as from what I read, that was the only unit blacks were allowed to join. I have a photo of him in uniform and he was not a light skinned man, so he couldn't have been mistaken for anything but a negro.




 
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/sub.cfm?source=feature/week2001/natnews/nov701

Canada's Black Contribution and The Second Construction Battalion

At the outbreak of the First World War, black Canadians were turned away from recruiting stations across the country. Black people in a number of provinces viewed military service in wartime not only as a right, but also as a responsibility. They were not prepared to accept a policy that excluded them on racial grounds. Under persistent pressure, the Canadian military finally authorized the recruitment of an all-black non-combatant labour unit.

Recruitment took place across Canada, but the majority of recruits came from the Maritimes, mostly from Nova Scotia. Eventually, 605 men were accepted into the battalion, including 19 officers. On March 28, 1917, the battalion boarded the SS Southland bound for Liverpool, England. They eventually reached France, where they joined the Canadian Forestry Corps. Their commander was Lt. Col. D.H. Sutherland of River John, Nova Scotia and Hon. Capt. William A. White served as their chaplain. White was the only black commissioned officer in the British forces during the First World War.

The unit served honourably in France, providing lumber necessary to maintain trenches on the front lines. Some of the members went on to serve in combat units. There were unknown and forgotten heros like James Grant, who came from St. Catharines, Ontario, and received the Military Cross in 1918. Roy Fells of Yarmouth, Nova Scotia was awarded the Military Medal while serving with the famed 25th Battalion from Nova Scotia. A black soldier, Curly Christian had the distinction of being the lone quadrilateral amputee to survive the war. He was present at the unveiling of the Vimy Ridge Memorial in 1936. And Jeremiah Jones of Truro, Nova Scotia, who crossed the bloody battlefield at Vimy Ridge and took an enemy machine-gun nest.

The battalion was disbanded in 1920 and seemed destined to fade into the mists of time, overlooked by history books. However, the veterans of the unit and their families never forgot. In 1932, Calvin W. Ruck, a social worker and civil servant from Sydney, helped to organize a reunion of the surviving veterans of the unit. Fours years later, Ruck published a book called Canada's Black Battalion, a history of the unit.

In 1987, Ruck approached the mayor of Pictou and suggested the Market Wharf receive recognition for its role in Canadian history. Four years later, Pictou town council declared the site a municipal historic property. From there, the Pictou council and the Black Cultural Centre for Nova Scotia mounted a joint effort to gain national recognition for the site and the battalion. The effort achieved success, when in 1993, the Historic Sites and Monuments Board announced its decision to commemorate the Market Wharf for its role as headquarters for the No. 2 Construction Battalion.
 
Dennis Ruhl said:
No - the whole works were racist.  You sound like a bunch of white guys sitting around the spitoon congratulating yourselves on how tolerant you are.

http://www.alts.net/ns1625/conbat2a.html

Listen up; it takes a whole hell of a lot to offend me, but you've managed to do so. What you have linked below is not "National Policy".

The OP is writing a paper and has claimed there was "National Policy" which segregated blacks and would only allow them to serve in their own segregated Units. It sounds as if he is basing his paper on such a "fact".

What you've linked below actually shows exactly what I stated earlier --- that although non-segregation was discouraged, that it was not official policy that blacks could only serve in segregated Bns etc.

Official Policy is very, very different than written discouragement - especially given the time period in question. In that era, to have put an "Official Policy" of segregation out there would have just been shrugged off by the vast majority of the populace as normal. Yet, today, I can't seem to find a single reference that details that Canada (yes, that's Canada vice the CF) had Official Policy that allowed blacks to serve in segregated Units only, not at the front lines and not in combat. What I am finding is a whole lot of examples that detail that though such service was discouraged, it was allowed; it must have been - else the examples I linked wouldn't have been wounded in batlles such as Vimy, Passchendaele.

I asked for a link to the "fact" there was official policy; now, if OP wants to base any writing on an unproven 'fact' that seems contradicted by cases being posted in this thread which indicate the opposite of his statement ... then that is up to him. Glad I'm not his prof 'cause that'd be a big fail from me without a reference to this "Official Policy" being embedded into footnotes etc.

Before you acuse me of anything or anyone else on this site, I suggest you read the OPs post, pull your thick skull out of your ass, and perhaps then you will be able to smell the roses.

-300 and as many a percentage as I can dock you; the mods having been way too nice.
 
How's this for an official reference on the Empire's military point of view?

Manual of Military Law, 1914

(page 242)

Coloured Troops

38.  Troops formed of coloured individuals belonging to savage tribes and barbarous races should not be employed in a war between civilized States.  The enrolling, however, of individuals belonging to civilized coloured races and the employment of whole regiments of disciplined coloured soldiers (a) is not forbidden.

Footnoted - (a) E.g., such troops as the Indian Army, the African troops of the French Army, and the Negro regiments of the United States Army.



In 900 pages on military law, that is the only reference to "Coloured Troops."
 
From the Great War Forum:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3935

I have found a fourth Black Canadian who was KIA while with the 26th Battalion,CEF - Ralph Stoutley. Some time ago here in Canada there was a "movie of the week" made about No.2 Construction Battalion, the only Black unit in the CEF. It is unfortunate that 21st century political correctness was applied in the making of this movie.
Viewers were left with the impression that nobody had ever heard of this unit, and the producers of the movie were revealing all. My thought at the time was how many Canadians could name any Canadian unit which served in WW1? Here in the small province of New Brunswick today, few citizens have heard of the 26th Battalion, which lost over a thousand men killed. Is it much wonder that a construction unit, of whatever race, which lost perhaps half a dozen dead (all through illness I believe), would be remembered by the general public? This battalion certainly performed a valuable role, but no more so than the dozens of other construction, forestry, and railway units.

The end result of the movie may be that No.2 Construction Bn might be the only WW1 unit Canadians can name, with the possible exceptions of the PPCLI and the Royal 22e Regt..
 
It was 1914-1916.  The CGS is discussing the inferiority of black people.  The CGS ran the show.  It took 2 years to get black people into the CEF.  The racism was blatantly obvious.  It's just history people.  We don't have to react to it or apologize for it.  The only thing we shouldn't do is deny it.
 
No-one is apologizing, you need to stop believing you see truth where others do not.

The OP stated he believed there was an official policy. Neither he nor you have yet provided such a document. The evidence being shared obviously shows that black soldiers were not restricted from serving in combat units, no matter what the GOC's personal opinion (or that of any colonel recruiting a unit).
 
Dennis Ruhl said:
It was 1914-1916.  The CGS is discussing the inferiority of black people.  The CGS ran the show.  It took 2 years to get black people into the CEF.  The racism was blatantly obvious.  It's just history people.  We don't have to react to it or apologize for it.  The only thing we shouldn't do is deny it.

Uhmmm, wrong.

R. Winslow and Sam Morgan

He enlisted in 1914 with the engineers at Woodstock, N.B., and transferred in 1915 to the Queen's Own Rifles of Toronto with which he was wounded. The other hospital car porters are Sam Morgan, 779 Second Avenue, Verdun; and Jean Napoleon Maurice, 1087 Ste-Elizabeth Street, and James E. Thompson, 116-C Dorchester Street West

  Between them, the four have 22 years of service in two wars with Morgan having served in both this war and the last one and spent seven months as a German prisoner 0 after the fall of France in 1940, when he stayed behind "to do a job" after the unit he was with had been evacuated.

  Morgan got away from the Nazis (he won't say how) and was on hand at Dieppe to pick up five bullets in his right leg to go with face, hand and hip wounds suffered in the Great War at the Second Battle of Ypres with the 48th Highlanders of Toronto which he joined in 1914. At Dieppe he was with Field Security. He started with the Signal Corps at Toronto in 1939 and transferred to the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment.

Populace Statistics

 
Dennis Ruhl said:
No - the whole works were racist.  You sound like a bunch of white guys sitting around the spitoon congratulating yourselves on how tolerant you are.

http://www.alts.net/ns1625/conbat2a.html

Your example, as many have pointed out, tends to agree with there not being an "official" policy of segregation.  It is also a memorandum from "one" officer, although of a high rank, not necessarily holding the opinion of all. 

As for your statement, I find it in itself racist.  There is no need to call us that, nor is it necessary to be an "Apologist" for a society that has changed greatly since that time over a hundred years in the past. 
 
Go here for Dennis constitutional tangent:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/100526.0.html
 
The Canadian militia through most of its history was formed around ethnic lines - hence our abundance of Scottish, Irish, or at one time, units named after Queen Victoria. As the militia units became responsible for recruiting during the First World War, this unwritten policy, a belief in ethnic over national solidarity did play into the recruiting strategies of Canadian leadership. Yes, fully  black labour battalions were formed during the war. Black Canadians were, at the time, Canada's largest "visible minority," and this is unsurprising that wholy black units would come out of it. Attempts were made to raise a Jewish Regiment, and our most lasting success in the strategy of recruiting still lives with us as the Vingt-Deux.

Was it racist that they were delegated to labour roles? Probably. The white Jews and Canadiens got to go into the infantry, but is that really a blessing? Certainly black men would get to fight in the infantry with their local units, just as members of smaller minorities, such as the Japanese and aboriginals, coming from smaller communities would be compelled to do by circumstance. The 10th battalion from Calgary had a number of Japanese soldiers, and our aboriginal snipers were the best in the whole war. The only Canadian group that would not find its way to the front were the conscientious objectors, and that had nothing to do with race.

This idea hasn't fully left us yet. I recall a proposal from a few years ago that an Aboriginal regular force unit should be raised. In other respects it has diminished, with the "Imperial" units disappearing from the roster and kilted units, instead of showing ethnic solidarity are more an instrument of attracting recruits.
 
Ex-SHAD said:
Non-white ratings were restricted to stokers, trimmers and greasers (until I believe the 1920’s).

My father was an RCNVR Engine Room Artificer Apprentice ART-APP during the war. He was a Stoker on one coal-fired ship, but apparently, from what he told me, that type of engine had become rare by then in the Canadian Navy. Only one of the four ships he served on was coal-fired.

Ex-SHAD said:
Prior to Unification, was there any form of official segregation in the Canadian Army, Royal Canadian Navy or Royal Canadian Air Force?

If interested in wartime RCAF recruiting, I would suggest "The Cream of the Crop: Canadian Aircrew 1939 - 1945" by Allan D. English.:
http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/CFAWC/cdd/histworkshop/HistWorkshop-2008/Bio-English.pdf

Michael O'Leary said:
From the Great War Forum:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3935

Edit: Quoting the Forum link, not Mr. O`Leary:
"Some time ago here in Canada there was a "movie of the week" made about No.2 Construction Battalion, the only Black unit in the CEF."

My paternal grandfather was in No. 1 Construction Battalion C.E.F.. He was wounded at Pachendale with them. So, I have done some family research on what little I can find written about No. 1 Construction Battalion.
I came across this on the internet. For what it is worth to the original poster, if interested:
"At the time, racism was so blatant within the military that when the battalion was formed, Ontario's all-white No. 1 Construction Battalion changed its name to avoid the association with black soldiers.":
http://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v10n08a10.html
I had some good talks with my grandfather, and asked him a lot of questions about a lot of things, but I do not recall him mentioning the subject of No. 1 Construction Battalion changing its name because of this.

 
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