Senior Officer numbers - FB post by Col (Ret'd) Michel Drapeau

[dimsum]

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[MilEME09]

Think we have been barking up that tree for years, the numbers don't make sense, and eat up our budget for personal, if we had a 1 to 5/6 ratio, we could afford a lot more NCMs.

 

[Jarnhamar]

There are currently 23,892 commissioned officers to lead the 42,252 non-commissioned members (NCMs).

Is that accurate?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

It's probably accurate, Jarnhamar. What else can you expect in a military where a quarter of your personnel is in the National Capital (and likely in staff positions at HQ)?

But the logic here for a country the size and in the economic position of Canada is not that we are over officered, it's that we are about 60,000 NCM's short of where we should be. NCM's aren't usually found in HQ staff positions, they are the ones that fight, fly and float - and that is what we need more of.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Delete ‘Duke’, insert ‘GOFO’

“A fully equipped duke costs as much to keep up as two Dreadnoughts, and dukes are just as great a terror - and they last longer.”
-- David Lloyd George

 

[dimsum]

It's probably accurate, Jarnhamar. What else can you expect in a military where a quarter of your personnel is in the National Capital (and likely in staff positions at HQ)?

I can't remember the number off-hand, but I don't think it was 1/4. More like 1/6 or so.

Still, a large amount are in the NCR.

 

[FJAG]

I'm looking at a somewhat older establishment from Dec 2017 which has listed 13,497 commissioned officers in the regular force and 47,753 non-commissioned ranks for a ratio of 1:3.54. At that time we had 106 GOFOs, 332 Cols and 531 CWOs. Quite frankly that's a lot more of all three ranks than what we need.

I can't see how the officer numbers could rise by 10,000 over three and one half years. My guess is that he has counted in the number of reserve force officers which back in 2017 was authorized at 8,088 (including 18 GOFOs, 92 Cols - as well as another 215 CWOs) Although he doesn't seem to have counted in the reserve force ORs which were established at 39,212 (and, off course, nowhere near recruited or funded at that level)

In short, I don't trust his figures but, that said, I completely agree that we are grossly over-officered and the the numbers of folks in the NCR (together with the civilian element of DND) is obscene. Why this and the MND's incompetence aren't an election issue shows how little the CAF matters to any of the parties.

 

[dimsum]

In short, I don't trust his figures but, that said, I completely agree that we are grossly over-officered and the the numbers of folks in the NCR (together with the civilian element of DND) is obscene. Why this and the MND's incompetence aren't an election issue shows how little the CAF matters to any of the parties.

Has the number of officers been a point worth mentioning in any democratic, non-military junta-style countries during election periods though?

I also suspect our numbers are skewed because of the RCAF's aircrew officers.

 

[Weinie]

I'm looking at a somewhat older establishment from Dec 2017 which has listed 13,497 commissioned officers in the regular force and 47,753 non-commissioned ranks for a ratio of 1:3.54. At that time we had 106 GOFOs, 332 Cols and 531 CWOs. Quite frankly that's a lot more of all three ranks than what we need.

I can't see how the officer numbers could rise by 10,000 over three and one half years. My guess is that he has counted in the number of reserve force officers which back in 2017 was authorized at 8,088 (including 18 GOFOs, 92 Cols - as well as another 215 CWOs) Although he doesn't seem to have counted in the reserve force ORs which were established at 39,212 (and, off course, nowhere near recruited or funded at that level)

In short, I don't trust his figures but, that said, I completely agree that we are grossly over-officered and the the numbers of folks in the NCR (together with the civilian element of DND) is obscene. Why this and the MND's incompetence aren't an election issue shows how little the CAF matters to any of the parties.

And yet they will go back to him, regardless of his bullshit stats, for quotes. One weeps.

 

[OldSolduer]

Why this and the MND's incompetence aren't an election issue shows how little the CAF matters to any of the parties.

The only time the CAF has mattered in recent years is 2002-2014.
The average Canadian could care less about the CAF until someone gets caught doing something they shouldn't, then they all become experts.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

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With apparent insouciance and in the absence of any guidance or direction by Parliament, the Regular Force has grown a high-density officer corps reaching alarming levels. There are currently 23,892 commissioned officers to lead the 42,252 non-commissioned members (NCMs). This is a ratio of 1 officer for every 1.8 NCMs.

We have one general officer for every 327 NCMs. We have more Generals (129) and Colonels (356) than Chief Warrant Officers (470). More Majors (3,817) than second lieutenants (1,509). As many Captains (6,565) than sergeants (6,804).

There is no apparent justification for this steady upward growth of officers. These numbers illustrate the need for reduction on the part of Parliament to establish quotas. A leaner ratio of officers/NCMs around the 1 to 5 or 1 to 6 level would be more in line with that of our NATO allies.

 

[Jarnhamar]

But the logic here for a country the size and in the economic position of Canada is not that we are over officered, it's that we are about 60,000 NCM's short of where we should be. NCM's aren't usually found in HQ staff positions, they are the ones that fight, fly and float - and that is what we need more of.

Fair enough. I wonder if at one point when we were hammering class upon class through RMC someone raised a hand and asked about the 60,000 NCM positions we were missing and who these new leaders were going to lead.

 

[Haggis]

In 2010 there were almost 600 Reg F CPO1/CWO, so that's an improvement.

 

[PuckChaser]

2017 is before the Chief modernization initiative that reverted a lot of technical chiefs to MWO. That probably changes Drapeaus numbers significantly.

 

[Haggis]

2017 is before the Chief modernization initiative that reverted a lot of technical chiefs to MWO. That probably changes Drapeaus numbers significantly.

The CWO/CPO1 SEM provided a few new "off ramps" for Chiefs who were no longer part of the succession plan.

 

[Kilted]

I'm looking at a somewhat older establishment from Dec 2017 which has listed 13,497 commissioned officers in the regular force and 47,753 non-commissioned ranks for a ratio of 1:3.54. At that time we had 106 GOFOs, 332 Cols and 531 CWOs. Quite frankly that's a lot more of all three ranks than what we need.

I can't see how the officer numbers could rise by 10,000 over three and one half years. My guess is that he has counted in the number of reserve force officers which back in 2017 was authorized at 8,088 (including 18 GOFOs, 92 Cols - as well as another 215 CWOs) Although he doesn't seem to have counted in the reserve force ORs which were established at 39,212 (and, off course, nowhere near recruited or funded at that level)

In short, I don't trust his figures but, that said, I completely agree that we are grossly over-officered and the the numbers of folks in the NCR (together with the civilian element of DND) is obscene. Why this and the MND's incompetence aren't an election issue shows how little the CAF matters to any of the parties.

If he somehow counted in the CIC, that would throw the numbers way off.

 

[dapaterson]

His numbers add up to about 66K, the last open source RegF number I can find is 68K (Canadian Armed Forces 101 - Canada.ca). I'd be curious to see his dataset, including its date. At the very least, it appears that he may be counting OCdt/NCdts in the total, who are officers, but not commissioned.

 

[PuckChaser]

Is that positions or actual people? The attrition right now is terrible so I expect a delta between those numbers which could explain the difference.

 

[dapaterson]

Per SSE, authorized strengths are 71500 Reg F and 30000 P Res. Note that those are inclusive of BTL, SUTL, ATL and SPHL.

 

[ballz]

We've had some pretty bad recruiting/retention numbers since COVID, I've heard in the realm of -10,000 people in Reg Force. I wouldn't be surprised if we're below 60k at this point.