Sept 2023 UKR Vet Recognition Incident (merged from several threads)

[Quirky]

Today, they just delay as long as possible to see how hard the political wind is blowing in case they might be able to brazen it out.

Easy to do when there is no accountability.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Thinking about it this controversy is similar to our own with the Red River Rebellion and Louis Riel. Heroes and villains depending on who your talking to.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Thinking about it this controversy is similar to our own with the Red River Rebellion and Louis Riel. Heroes and villains depending on who your talking to.

Not particularly. Riel was a traitorous rebel who used armed force as a misguided way to protect his people and homeland. Hunka was a foreigner who joined up with a group we now know committed crimes against humanity at industrial levels. Louis Riel paid for his crimes, Hunka has not.

Also, there are some within the Métis community that now denounce the actions, on both sides, as being heavy handed and doing more to set back Métis people than pursuing diplomatic channels that were already being established between the Canadian Government and the Métis.

 

[The Bread Guy]

At the end of the day it was a bad gaffe.
Frankly I shake my head at all the members of the HoC most who are old enough to remember who fought in WW2…
But unlike Russia who commits war crimes every day, Canada made a choice of poor etiquette (and revealed a terrible understanding of history) but no one died.

Very true, especially in the bigger scheme of things. It does suck, though, that Canada stepping barefoot on a Lego like this is also causing some pain to a country at war that Canada's trying to help.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Thinking about it this controversy is similar to our own with the Red River Rebellion and Louis Riel. Heroes and villains depending on who your talking to.

Very broadly, reminds me of the U.S. Civil War symbol debate. By some views, to use someone else's handy phrasing ....

... Riel Jefferson Davis was a traitorous rebel who used armed force as a misguided way to protect his people and homeland ...

... and some people who are underwhelmed by continued use of rebel-side symbols of the time often get told, "hey, it's more complicated than that - it was about state rights" as a blanket explanation, or get dinged about "history can't be erased - we should know, even if it hurts to know."

... there are some within the Métis community that now denounce the actions, on both sides, as being heavy handed and doing more to set back Métis people than pursuing diplomatic channels that were already being established between the Canadian Government and the Métis.

Based on how governments of the day dealt with other Indigenous issues, one can't blame someone for being at the very least leery about how well playing nice would work.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Based on how governments of the day dealt with other Indigenous issues, one can't blame someone for being at the very least leery about how well playing nice would work.

Ah but the Métis weren't playing the Indigenous card back then. They were playing the French card, and had a large amount of support in Quebec for their cause. The fact that there were mourning symbols around Montreal and Quebec City when Riel was hanged was indicative of that support.

Then again, we can "what if" the crap out of history, it doesn't change the fact that our Parliament gave a standing ovation to a Ukranian with ties to the Waffen SS less than a week ago.

 

[Haggis]

Not particularly. Riel was a traitorous rebel who used armed force as a misguided way to protect his people and homeland. Hunka was a foreigner who joined up with a group we now know committed crimes against humanity at industrial levels. Louis Riel paid for his crimes, Hunka has not.

I've seen nothing that would speak to what war crimes Hunka personally committed or was party to? Was his position within the Waffen SS one that would have been complicit in war crimes? I'm not defending the guy, but saying "he was Waffen SS and therefore a war criminal" is like saying anyone who rides a Harley and wears a leather vest is an HA member and, therefore, a violent criminal.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I've seen nothing that would speak to what war crimes Hunka personally committed or was party to? Was his position within the Waffen SS one that would have been complicit in war crimes? I'm not defending the guy, but saying "he was Waffen SS and therefore a war criminal" is like saying anyone who rides a Harley and wears a leather vest is an HA member and, therefore, a violent criminal.

I agree on the "war criminal" wording for any individual, including this one.

I think it's more like if someone is wearing HA colours, they're part of a criminal organization even if they, individually, didn't commit any crimes as a motorcycle enthusiast. You can say they're part of a group considered criminal by x or y, but does that make each and every individual a criminal?

Ah but the Métis weren't playing the Indigenous card back then. They were playing the French card, and had a large amount of support in Quebec for their cause. The fact that there were mourning symbols around Montreal and Quebec City when Riel was hanged was indicative of that support.

Good points.

Then again, we can "what if" the crap out of history, it doesn't change the fact that our Parliament gave a standing ovation to a Ukranian with ties to the Waffen SS less than a week ago.

No it doesn't, for sure!

 

[Kirkhill]

Saw an article today about Northern Ireland and the prospect of united Ireland.
Best argument was that if the border went away Ulster would become an Irish problem and Sinn Fein would have no reason.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I've seen nothing that would speak to what war crimes Hunka personally committed or was party to? Was his position within the Waffen SS one that would have been complicit in war crimes? I'm not defending the guy, but saying "he was Waffen SS and therefore a war criminal" is like saying anyone who rides a Harley and wears a leather vest is an HA member and, therefore, a violent criminal.

While most of the calls for prosecution/extradition/revocation of citizenship/summary execution/further taunting of Hunka are probably emotional reactions without basis of actually looking at the law or any specific evidence, some of it is based on the ruling of the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg that the SS was a criminal organization.

The Avalon Project : Judgment : The Accused Organizations

Article 9 of the Charter provides:

" At the trial of any individual member of any group or organisation the Tribunal may declare (in connection with any act of which the individual may be convicted) that the group or organisation of which the individual was a member was a criminal organisation.

" After receipt of the Indictment the Tribunal shall give such notice as it thinks fit that the prosecution intends to ask the Tribunal to make such declaration and any member of the organisation will be entitled to apply to the Tribunal for leave to be heard by the Tribunal upon the question of the criminal character of the organisation. The Tribunal shall have power to allow or reject the application. If the application is allowed, the Tribunal may direct in what manner the applicants shall be represented and heard."

Article 10 of the Charter makes clear that the declaration of criminality against an accused organisation is final, and cannot be challenged in any subsequent criminal proceeding against a member of that organisation Article 10 is as follows:

" In cases where a group or organisation is declared criminal by the Tribunal, the competent national authority of any Signatory shall have the right to bring individuals to trial for membership therein before national, military or occupation courts. In any such case the criminal nature of the group or organisation is considered proved and shall not be questioned."

The effect of the declaration of criminality by the Tribunal is well illustrated by Law Number 10 of the Control Council of Germany passed on the 20th day of December, 1945, which provides:

" Each of the following acts is recognised as a crime:

" (d) Membership in categories of a criminal group or organisation declared criminal by the International Military Tribunal.

" (3) Any person found guilty of any of the crimes above mentioned may upon conviction be punished as shall be determined by the Tribunal to be just. Such punishment may consist of one or more of the following

• (a) Death.
• (b) Imprisonment for life or a term of years, with or without hard labour.
• (c) Fine, and imprisonment with or without hard labour, in lieu thereof."

The Avalon Project : Judgment : The Accused Organizations

The SS​

Structure and Component Parts: The Prosecution has named Die Schutzstaffeln Der Nationalsocialistischen Deutschen Arbeiterpartei (commonly known as the SS) as an organisation which should be declared criminal. The portion of the Indictment dealing with the SS also includes the Die Sicherheitsdienst des Reichsfuehrer-SS (commonly known as the SD). This latter organisation, which was originally an intelligence branch of the SS, later became an important part of the organisation of Security Police and SD and is dealt with in the Tribunal's Judgment on the Gestapo.
. . .
Conclusions: The SS was utilised for the purposes which were criminal under the Charter involving the persecution and extermination of the Jews, brutalities and killings in concentration camps, excesses in the administration of occupied territories, the administration of the slave labour programme and the mistreatment and murder of prisoners of war. The defendant Kaltenbrunner was a member of the SS implicated in these activities. In dealing with the SS the Tribunal includes all persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS including the members of the Allgemeine SS, members of the Waffen SS, members of the SS Totenkopf Verbaende and the members of any of the different police forces who were members of the SS. The Tribunal does not include the so-called SS riding units. The Sicherheitsdienst des Reichsfuehrer SS (commonly known as the SD) is dealt with in the Tribunal's Judgment on the Gestapo and SD.

Tribunal declares to be criminal within the meaning of the Charter the group composed of those persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS as enumerated in the preceding paragraph who became or remained members of the organisation with knowledge that it was being used for the commission of acts declared criminal by Article 6 of the Charter or who were personally implicated as members of the organisation in the commission of such crimes, excluding, however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes. The basis of this finding is the participation of the organisation in war crimes and crimes against humanity connected with the war; this group declared criminal cannot include, therefore, persons who had ceased to belong to the organisations enumerated in the preceding paragraph prior to 1st September, 1939.

It's like the ultimate RICO prosecution with each and every volunteer member of the SS whether prosecuted or not, or even named or not at the Nuremburg Trials being guilty of the crime of being a member of a criminal organization. Trying to apply the ruling of the IMT in Canada today would make for an interesting exercise, but would unlikely be successful even if it got off the ground. The Deschenes Commission did comment on it in its report, noting that (in their opinion?) it wasn't applicable in Canada as we were not a signatory to the London Treaty.

 

[RangerRay]

Not particularly. Riel was a traitorous rebel who used armed force as a misguided way to protect his people and homeland. Hunka was a foreigner who joined up with a group we now know committed crimes against humanity at industrial levels. Louis Riel paid for his crimes, Hunka has not.

Also, there are some within the Métis community that now denounce the actions, on both sides, as being heavy handed and doing more to set back Métis people than pursuing diplomatic channels that were already being established between the Canadian Government and the Métis.

Oh jeez! If one were to say that out loud hear Manitoba, they would be drawn, quartered, and each quarter taken to each corner of the Province to rot in the open as a warning. For some reason, he’s considered a “Father of Confederation” here.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Oh jeez! If one were to say that out loud hear Manitoba, they would be drawn, quartered, and each quarter taken to each corner of the Province to rot in the open as a warning. For some reason, he’s considered a “Father of Confederation” here.

He would have been, if he had quit while he was ahead in 1869. Executing Thomas Scott summarily was the start of his undoing. Then the whole "this rebellion thing worked in 1869 when there wasn't a railway to move troops from Ontario & Quebec" plan in 1885 didn't work out for him...

 

[Remius]

Oh jeez! If one were to say that out loud hear Manitoba, they would be drawn, quartered, and each quarter taken to each corner of the Province to rot in the open as a warning. For some reason, he’s considered a “Father of Confederation” here.

I went to a French Catholic school in Ontario and I can assure he is seen in a positive light here as well in those circles. They even have a school named after him. It was very much a French thing at the time as well.

 

[vonGarvin]

That's because former members of the Wehrmacht were very successful in the perpetrating the myth that they were squeaky clean and the SS were responsible for all the bad things that happened during the war.

If you want a different version of that, check out ' Soldiers: German POWs on Fighting, Killing, and Dying by Sonke Neitzel (Author), Harald Welzer (Author), Jefferson Chase (Translator). Translated from the book Soldaten.

The book is based on secret recordings that the Allies made of German POWs, many of them senior Generals, but also some lower ranks as well.

It's divided into sections covering different aspects of the war including one on killing, where the POWs openly discuss atrocities committed by ordinary German soldiers, including participating in the mass execution of Jews, killing of enemy POWs and civilians, and rape.

Its a very interesting read and destroys the myth that only the SS were responsible for war crimes and the Wehrmacht were innocent. Another key take away was that it was no secret among the military that mass killings of Jews were taking place in Eastern Europe, even the ordinary soldiers knew about them.

Don't care. The SS was a criminal organization.

 

[Brad Sallows]

If the Germans and Japanese had won the war, the Commonwealth and US strategic bombing commands could easily have been ruled to be criminal organizations. Some people would have it that way regardless of the fact that we won.

 

[Kirkhill]

Babin Yar

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/16vgqkg

 

[suffolkowner]

If Hunka had joined the Soviet Red Army like most Ukrainians and most eastern Ukrainians he could have raped his way through Poland and Germany with impunity. Perhaps he did the same in Czechoslovakia and Poland anyway just for the Nazis. But I think for an extradition case to be made he would need to be tied to particular events and not just general membership in the 14th Waffen Division of the SS

 

[Eaglelord17]

Don't care. The SS was a criminal organization.

You can declare something whatever you want after the fact, but at the time of the Third Reich they were a legitimate part of the government and were legitimate combatants as per the Geneva Convention.

Shall we declare basically every Canadian Regiment a criminal organization as during the first world war we were well known for committing war crimes and executing prisoners?

 

[YZT580]

I went to a French Catholic school in Ontario and I can assure he is seen in a positive light here as well in those circles. They even have a school named after him. It was very much a French thing at the time as well.

of course it was and with good reason. The Metis are not theoretically a nation at all but a mix of french trappers and indigenous ladies whose trapping camps grew into villages with time. So the french were very much involved and they, the Metis, were proud of their heritage.

 

[Kilted]

He would have been, if he had quit while he was ahead in 1869. Executing Thomas Scott summarily was the start of his undoing. Then the whole "this rebellion thing worked in 1869 when there wasn't a railway to move troops from Ontario & Quebec" plan in 1885 didn't work out for him...

Regardless of what your view of him was, he was a terrorist and a murderer. If our society is going to do a deep dive into re-thinking our historical figures, he shouldn't be an exception. If people want to take John A. MacDonald's name off things, than his name should be coming down as well.