Shooting rampage at Fort Hood

[Redeye]

The one he actually fired was an FN Five-SeveN - which is one hell of a punchy round.

What kinda handguns are they using?

On TV their saying the handgun used was SO powerful that law enforcement call it the cop killer.

 

[Redeye]

Is there so much as a shred of evidence of that?

Not in anything I can see.

There's some reports that he uttered the Arabic phrase "Allahu akhbar" - but that's a pretty common phrase among any Arabic speakers as far as I know - Arabic colloquialism is full of references to God.

The guy didn't want to deploy - he wanted out of the service altogether, I don't know why he wasn't granted a release.  He also had a certainly stressful job as a psychiatrist to soldiers.  It's entirely possible he succumbed to some kind of psychological meltdown.

There's a lot of ridiculous conjecture going on about this, and having it posts making such assertions on here, in the absence of any clear evidence of what exactly motivated this atrocity, is not exactly in the best traditions of army.ca.

Condolences to all ....  :'(

I think, this was an inexcusable act of jihad--nothing more-nothing less--T6 nailed it when he said the guy was radicalized.

Take up the enemies insufferable training manuals and read them page by bloody page, then you see that the tentacles of evil fatwas distort the true meaning of Islam into a violent radical, human-hating hybrid exhorting followers to do whatever violent act they're able to manage, whether small or large, to hurt the west--a perverse, cancerous ideology that metastasizes everywhere with a long twisted reach that no civilized nation can afford to treat lightly. :rage:

I hope America will stand strong.

Prayers to the Fallen and their families and friends; speedy recovery to the wounded.

 

[leroi]

Redeye, you are correct-too much assumption and emotion on my part before the facts have been established.

I guess I should offer my point of view as early conjecture only...

-Hope they get to the bottom of it.

 

[a_majoor]

Jerry Pournelle:

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/view/2009/Q4/view595.html#Friday

Reaping the Whirlwind

    Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

England was fond of declaring various actions treasonable, and convicting people of treason for activities that could be described as "loyal opposition." The Constitution nailed down the definition of Federal treason.

I would presume that arming oneself and shooting 43 US soldiers is (1) levying war against the United States, and (2) an overt act, and that Major Hassan should be charged with treason. I would further argue that prior to his actions he had made a number of overt acts which were evidence of adherence to their enemies, and he could have been charged with treason for those; but I won't argue the case too strongly.

I will argue that political correctness led to the madness of having someone who does not believe in the legitimacy of the war in Iraq practice psychiatry by counseling some of the most severely traumatized in the Iraqi war: that the instant he began to show doubts about the legitimacy of the War and an unwillingness to be deployed to participate in it, he ought at the very least to have been stripped of his commission and suffer whatever other consequences of failing to fulfill his part of the contract under which the United States paid for both his undergraduate and his medical education in return for his service as a medical officer.

Richard Weaver wrote an important book called Ideas Have Consequences. It's one book that everyone ought to read as an undergraduate, but the title makes an important point. Political correctness was the cause of the Fort Hood Massacre, and we ought not forget that. The fact that someone could go through -- at government expense -- an undergraduate education with ROTC, then medical school at a US military institution, and remain a traitor to the United States is a significant warning. A very significant warning that the idea of Political Correctness has consequences we can't afford. Corruption of the Legions is one danger the Republic cannot endure.

The Legions remain faithful; but for how long when their officers are no longer faithful? Hassan had been through ROTC and a US armed forces medical school as a commissioned officer. Why was his failure of loyalty to the armed forces not detected earlier? But of course he was a Muslim, and it would not be politically correct to wash someone out of an armed forces medical school for lack of loyalty to the armed forces of these United States.

We sow the wind. We have reaped one whirlwind.

==========

The politically correct spin is coming like a tidal wave. He is a crazy guy who happens to be a Muslim. All of that misses the point: he was disloyal to the United States, and said so openly and many times; yet he remained a commissioned officer of the United States. That is the point that is being overlooked. Whether the disloyalty is due to a psychotic episode or some other cause is not important.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Looks like the US Army shit the bed and had all the indicators that this guy was a nut job and failed to act on it.
Probably afraid to offend him.


So is a Five-Seven actually as powerful as they suggest and designed to pierce armor or is that being blown out of per portion?

 

[old medic]

Update on the 467th. Hit pretty hard for a 43 man unit.

Texas shootings hit home; 2 Wisconsin soldiers are killed, at least 3 injured
Wisconsin State Journal
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt_and_politics/article_c023f4c2-caff-11de-864f-001cc4c03286.html

The shock of Thursday's mass shooting at an Army post in Texas hit home Friday as at least five Wisconsin soldiers were identified as among the dead and wounded.

Four of the soldiers were members of the Madison-based 467th Medical Detachment.

Sgt. Amy Krueger, 29, of Kiel in southwestern Manitowoc County, joined the Army shortly after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, with an eye toward getting Osama Bin Laden.

Capt. Russell Seager, a 51-year-old nurse practitioner of Pleasant Prairie, joined the Army Reserve about four years ago and pushed to deploy with the unit so he could help soldiers cope with the stresses of war.

Both were killed when police say Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan opened fire at a Soldier Readiness Center at Fort Hood, Texas, where 300 soldiers about to be deployed were waiting for eye tests and vaccinations.

"She was a beautiful, beautiful person," said Rosanne Coffeen, the mother of Krueger's best friend. "This sure never should have happened to her."

Krueger and Seager belonged to the 467th, based at 1402 S. Park St. in Madison. Wounded from the unit were Dorothy Carskadon, 47, a social worker and the team leader from the Madison Vet Center, and Army Reserve Spc. Grant Moxon, 23, a mental health specialist from Lodi.

Also injured was Pfc. Amber Bahr, 23, of Random Lake. It was not clear Friday if she was a member of the unit.

The bodies of Krueger, Seager and the 11 others killed were being flown to Dover Air Force base in Dover, Del., for autopsies, according to the Associated Press, which also reported 30 people were wounded in the attack.

The Army had not released late Friday a full list of the dead and wounded but Army Chief of Staff George Casey said about 20 units were affected by the shooting. Secretary of the Army John McHugh singled out the 36th Engineer Brigade based at Fort Hood as especially hard hit, with four killed and 11 wounded.

Wisconsin Gov. Jim Doyle was still waiting for official word on the number of dead and injured from Wisconsin but said that the Wisconsin National Guard had offered to help affected Wisconsin families.

"We will make available to those families all the resources that we have in this state to help them to deal with this," Doyle said. "I know I speak for all the people in the state of Wisconsin that our prayers are with those families and we are incredibly thankful for the service of their loved ones."

'It's not been an easy day'

With the Army not releasing names of the victims, their identities slowly trickled out Thursday and Friday. Krueger's family went public early Friday, and a friend called Kiel High School Principal Dario Talerico. He announced the death of the 1998 graduate at about 8 a.m. over the school's public address system. Kiel is a community of about 3,000 people 65 miles north of Milwaukee.

"If our kids didn't know her directly they knew a sibling or cousin or an aunt and uncle," said Talerico. "It's not been an easy day."

An uncle of Seager confirmed the soldier's death Friday but other family members declined to speak to reporters.

Peter Pavone, campus director at Bryant & Stratton College in Milwaukee where Seager has taught since 2005, called Seager a "remarkable individual" who "was admired for his skill as an instructor, dedication to his career and concern for the success and well being of his students and his country."

Moxon, a 2004 Lodi High School graduate, told his father, Dave Moxon, that he had been shot in the leg and had looked the shooter, who was about 15 feet away, in the eye. He said he played dead after being shot.

"We feel very fortunate," Dave Moxon said. "Relative to the overall scope of what happened, this is on the minor side."

Close-knit unit

Army Reserve Spc. Jason Zant, 23, of Friendship, also a member of the 467th, witnessed the shooting but was not injured.

"According to him, he was in that place where the shooting took place and he saw everything," said Zant's mother, Kathy Zant, who spoke with him briefly the day of the shooting. "He said he had seen members of his unit get shot. He didn't know their condition then because they were on their way to the hospital."

Zant said her son sounded "pretty shaken up." She was saddened to hear about the deaths and injuries among other members of the Madison-based unit, which she described as "close knit."

Bahr was shot in the back. She joined the Army Reserves when she was 17 and was saving money for college, said her mother, Lisa Pfund.

Lt. Gen. Bob Cone told NBC's "Today" show Friday that Bahr helped apply a tourniquet to one injured soldier and then attended to other soldiers before realizing she'd been shot.

State Journal reporters Barry Adams, Gena Kittner, Dee J. Hall, Deborah Ziff and Patricia Simms, and the Associated Press contributed to this report

Rockford native hurt in Fort Hood shooting
Rockford Register Star
http://www.rrstar.com/news/x1156080596/Rockford-native-hurt-in-Fort-Hood-shooting

LOVES PARK — A Rockford native stationed at Fort Hood was among more than 30 injured Thursday in what authorities are describing as the worst mass shooting ever at a military base in the United States.

U.S Army Reserve social worker Dorothy “Dorrie” Carskadon was critically injured, said Michelle Zuba-Ingram with St. Chad Episcopal Church in Loves Park.

Zuba-Ingram said Carskadon was a member of the church and her family attends church services at St. Chad. She said Carskadon had left for Fort Hood in early October and was awaiting deployment to Afghanistan.

“She was critically injured and was in surgery all night,” Zuba-Ingram said. “It’s just a real shock.”

Zuba-Ingram said she last saw Carskadon at St. Chad before she left last month. Carskadon always wore a smile on her face, she said.

“We gave her a blessing and the whole congregation was here giving her hugs and sending her off,” Zuba-Ingram said. “She was proudly heading to Afghanistan. She just wanted to be able to help.”

The church is collecting donations to help Carskadon’s family fly to Texas. A vigil has been scheduled for 6 p.m. today at the church, 6245 N. Second St.

“We are hoping to get the family out of here today,” Zuba-Ingram said. “We have some flights temporarily booked.”

The U.S. Army Reserve in Milwaukee would not confirm whether Carskadon had been injured or whether she was part of a group stationed at Fort Hood. A spokesman said the Army would not release any names for at least an additional 24 hours.

According to the Madison Vet Center in Wisconsin, Carskadon had been a social worker there since 2006 and was a part of the 467th Combat Stress Control Army Reserve Detachment.

Carskadon worked at the Rockford Vet Center Outstation from 1997 until she moved to Madison. Her Army service from 1989 to 1994 included a tour in the Persian Gulf during Operation Desert Shield/Operation Desert Storm.

One Ft. Hood victim lived and taught in Tucson
Ch 13 News - Tucson Arizona
Posted: Nov 06, 2009 5:46 PM EST Updated: Nov 06, 2009 9:39 PM EST

TUCSON, AZ (KOLD) - An ex-wife of Maj. L. Eduardo Caraveo-- a man with Tucson ties-- has confirmed he was one of the victims of Thursday's shooting spree in Ft. Hood, Texas.

Maj. Caraveo was an adjunct professor at the University of Arizona who also worked as a case worker for Child Protective Services.

He earned his Ph. D. from the UA in 1986. On his website, he says he has been practicing clinical psychology for 20 years.

Maj. Caraveo was assigned to  the 467th Combat Stress Control Army Reserve Detachment at Ft. Hood, according to the Madison.com.

That unit provides mental health and other services to soldiers suffering from combat stress.

 

[a_majoor]

The FN Five-Seven fires a 5.7 X 28 round, which is designed to pierce armour and take down a human target at ranges up to 200m. The round was designed for the FN P-90 submachine gun (sometimes styled as a Personal Defense Weapon or PDW), and the pistol designed afterwards.

The penetrating qualities of the round are somewhat moot in this situation, the victims were not protected by armour and were shot at relatively close range. If the shooter was carrying a more common 9mm or .45 ACP handgun, the results would have been very similar.

 

[leroi]

Commodore Hans Jung speaks out:

Fort Hood massacre a 'betrayal' of medical oaths, says top military MD

November 6, 2009: Canadian Press

http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/canada/article/362402--fort-hood-massacre-a-betrayal-of-medical-oaths-says-top-military-md

OTTAWA - Canadian soldiers reacted with horror, dismay and sympathy Friday to the shooting rampage that claimed 13 lives at a U.S. Army base with deep ties to the Canadian military.

Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Walt Natynczyk expressed his condolences while Defence Minister Peter MacKay, speaking in Halifax, described the deadly attack as "shocking and beyond understanding."

Those who deal with mental health programs in the military were aghast that a psychiatrist, whose duty it was to help traumatized soldiers, could have been responsible.

"I don't know this individual. I don't know all the details, but as a physician and a psychiatrist, not only is this a criminal activity, it betrays the profession," said Commodore Hans Jung, the military's surgeon general.

"It's tragic enough for soldiers to be killed in overseas combat operations, but you know, to be killed at your own military base back in your own country . . . ."

Jung, who is in charge of all health services in the Canadian military, cautioned that no one should draw a direct line between the accused - Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan - and his work counselling traumatized soldiers at the U.S. army's Walter Reed Hospital in Maryland.

"I think we should be very careful not to relate this to some of the mental health stresses that the soldiers go through or for that matter the challenges of people who try to help," he said in an interview Friday.

Burn-out among mental health professionals is something the military pays close attention to, Jung told The Canadian Press.

Similarly, one of the country's most vocal Muslim organizations appealed to Canadians not to link the massacre with religion.

The plea for calm came from the Calgary-based Islamic Supreme Council of Canada, which is also calling on all Muslims in the country to condemn the shooting at Fort Hood, Texas.

Imam Syed Soharwardy, the council's founder who walked across the country to promote non-violence, has implored the public not to link the massacre with Islam or Muslims, even "if the shooter was shouting Islamic slogans."

Soldiers reported that the gunman shouted "Allahu Akbar!" - an Arabic phrase for "God is great!" - before opening fire.

But Soharwardy said random shootings are carried out all of the time and they are the work of psychopaths or extremists.

The alleged shooter was apparently involved in a spat with another soldier living in his apartment over Hasan's religious beliefs.

Investigators in the U.S. are trying to piece together how and why Hasan allegedly gunned down his comrades but some who knew the army psychiatrist say he may have been struggling with a pending deployment to Afghanistan.

The 39-year-old Hasan was among 30 people wounded in the rampage Thursday and remained hospitalized in a coma, attached to a ventilator.

The sprawling base, south of Dallas, holds a deep attachment to the Canadian military.

The current deputy commander of III Corp is Canadian Brig.-Gen. Peter Atkinson, a former senior aide to retired chief of defence staff general Rick Hillier, who also spent time as an exchange officer there.

Also, the unit of American troops, who served under Canadian command in Kandahar - the famed 2/2 infantry regiment of the 1st U.S. Infantry Division - are based at Fort Hood.

Hasan is thought to have smuggled the weapons used in the attack on to the base, rather than relying on the extensive military arsenal.

Maj. Natalie Birgentzlen, of the Canadian Forces Provost Marshal's office, said Canadian bases have very strict guidelines for the handling of military weapons.

There are sign-out procedures, safeguards and regular inspections, she said.

When it comes to trying to smuggle weapons on to a Canadian base, Birgentzlen said military police are vigilant and conduct routine searches when someone looks suspicious.

News from ©The Canadian Press, 2009

 

[Kat Stevens]

My only hope is that the shooter gets to live a long life... strapped into a wheelchair, blowing into a straw to get around, thinking about what he's done.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

My only hope is that the shooter gets to live a long life... strapped into a wheelchair, blowing into a straw to get around, thinking about what he's done.

I prefer the idea that he'll be laying in a bed staring at a blank ceiling.  Then he gets colon cancer.  And they cure it.  Then he gets esophageal cancer.  And they cure it. And so forth for the rest of his long, horrid life.  Just another zealot and coward who proved nothing other than ignoring warning signs gets people killed. 
There is going to be a flurry of finger pointing over this one.  All the signs were there. Why this asshole was allowed to draw money from his government is unreal.  That his job was to assist with the mental well being of soldiers is staggering.  Surely his rank and religion could not have been too scary that somebody could react?  Is the United States military that politically correct? 
Doubtless there will be a massive outcry of condemnation from Muslim groups all over America to show their support for their troops and to slag off the coward they are now shunning.  :

 

[Blackadder1916]

The guy didn't want to deploy - he wanted out of the service altogether, I don't know why he wasn't granted a release.  He also had a certainly stressful job as a psychiatrist to soldiers.  It's entirely possible he succumbed to some kind of psychological meltdown.

Purely speculation - but he had only just started his obligatory service commitment for his education.

http://www.vahealthprovider.com/results_edu.asp?License_No=0101238630

Medical, Osteopathic, or Podiatric School

Last Updated 10/13/2009 Grad School: Uniformed Services University Of The Health Sciences F. Edward Herbert School Of Medicine - Bethesda MD
Year Completed: 2003

Medical, Osteopathic, or Podiatric Post Grad School

Last Updated 10/13/2009 Psychiatry
WRAMC
Washington, DC USA
Year Residency Completed: 2007

Disaster and Preventive Psychiatry
USUHS/WRAMC
Bethesda, MD USA
Year Fellowship Completed: 2009

Med school (4 years), residency (4 years) and fellowship (2 years) - that's ten years of mostly continuous education that he received,  At a minimum, US Army docs who attend USUHS and then do residency usually owe 7 years active duty service and 6 years inactive ready reserve service (in the last 8 years a lot of those guys in the reserve have been activated for varying periods).

 

[proudnurse]

My heart and prayers truly go out to everyone involved in this tragedy. To worry about their loved ones when they go to a war zone over seas , but then this happens right in their own backyard. I'm sure this is hitting close to home for many people all over the world, including those soldiers currently deployed that have had to worry about their own families back home. Leaves you almost speechless. I'm so sorry to hear about this.

 

[mariomike]

There's some reports that he uttered the Arabic phrase "Allahu akhbar" - but that's a pretty common phrase among any Arabic speakers as far as I know - Arabic colloquialism is full of references to God.

And then he aimed and fired over one hundred rounds at/into unarmed American soldiers.

[/quote]
The guy didn't want to deploy - he wanted out of the service altogether, I don't know why he wasn't granted a release.
[/quote]

See Reply #70.

[/quote]
He also had a certainly stressful job as a psychiatrist to soldiers. 
[/quote]

He never served on Operations.
Mental Health professionals - military, emergency services and civilian - have been around a long time. Including both World Wars. Why didn't they massacre unarmed people? The very people they were paid to help. The Major received a free education courtesy of the Army he volunteered to serve, and they were reportedly paying him "in the six figures."

..............Also...........................
"Was massacre suspect a jihadist?: One thing not being mentioned openly about the Fort Hood massacre of 13 American soldiers and the wounding of 30 others, is whether this was a version of suicide bombing.":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/peter_worthington/2009/11/07/11666946-sun.html
"The "coincidence," (if that's what it is) of an American officer going berserk at Fort Hood who just happens to be a devout Muslim, is disquieting, to say the least."

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I usually try to look at the steak and forget about the peas.

In this case (IMO):

steak = he was an Officer, a muslim, shot a bunch of US service personnel on their own turf, and yelled "Allahu akhbar" before opening up.

peas = all the speculation, and anything that resembles an explaination that downplays the steak.

RIP to all the murdered (yes, murdered) US servicemen/women, condolences to their families.  I hope everyone recovers fully.  A huge BZ to the female cop who put holes in the POS, and I thank her for not killing the bastard too.  Let him stand trial.  Sometimes "dead" just isn't good enough IMO.

I am no expert in any of this, but all I see is a POS who infiltrated the "rear area" and caused casualties.  Fuck him and his reasons why. 

 

[KevinB]

FYI the 5.7x28 round is rather aenemic as far as a terminal performer goes.  USSOCOM testing had the author write "the issuance of this round is the best way to ensure mission failure"
  While it may penetrate soft armor to 200m - it does just that, its more like a .22LR round.

IF the shooter had been armed with a 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, with modern jacketed hollow point I beleive his reuslts would have been much more devastating.

Howver really, he could have gotten a lot more people with a car...

 

[George Wallace]

I prefer the idea that he'll be laying in a bed staring at a blank ceiling.  Then he gets colon cancer.  And they cure it.  Then he gets esophageal cancer.  And they cure it. And so forth for the rest of his long, horrid life.   

Except, that one little point:  Texas still has the Death Penalty.

 

[mariomike]

Except, that one little point:  Texas still has the Death Penalty.

This case is Federal jurisdiction. He will not be "Texecuted". I think he will be tried in a Military JAG, where he will face the death penalty. I think there will also be pressure on Federal authorities to push for a Treason charge. The FBI may also charge him with Terrorism.
Assuming that he survives and is fit to stand trial. Should he receive the Death Penalty, I think it will be carried out at USP Terre Haute, IN.

"The infuriating reality we are left with is that if Nidal Hasan survives his injuries, he may end up spending the remainder of his life in the company of Hasan Akbar, who also sits on death row for the murder of his comrades.":
http://newledger.com/2009/11/how-the-fort-hood-shooter-will-be-judged/
By Joshua Stanton, a former JAG officer, who is an attorney in Washington, DC.

 

[George Wallace]

This case is Federal jurisdiction. He will not be "Texecuted". I think he will be tried in a Military JAG, where he will face the death penalty. I think there will also be pressure on Federal authorities to to push for a Treason charge. The FBI may also charge him with Terrorism, but I think the military will get first crack at him.

And the Sentence would be? 

I believe the US still has the Death Penalty in its Military Justice System.

 

[GAP]

Nah, he'll get warehoused in some building because he will claim insanity.....for an insane act.....watch.  :

 

[EW]

"...There is going to be a flurry of finger pointing over this one.  All the signs were there. Why this asshole was allowed to draw money from his government is unreal.  That his job was to assist with the mental well being of soldiers is staggering.  Surely his rank and religion could not have been too scary that somebody could react?  Is the United States military that politically correct? ..."

Of course we don't know the details, but if one was too speculate, you should consider things other than rank and religion.  The U.S. (and Canadian) military are under pressure to provide adequate psych/health services to soldiers.  I would think the U.S. Army would be trying to do all they could to retain educated health professionals, like they thought this Major was.  Obviously, they may have made too many exceptions for him.  Perhaps based on his specialty and education as much as anything else.  I would hope/expect that there will be an investigation, not just criminal, but also procedural, by the U.S. Army, into how they missed this.  Especially with a profession that should be screened even closer because they are expected to help those who are most troubled.

Yes he was a Muslim, yes he was an officer, yes he went off the deep end.  Just as there have been U.S. enlisted who were Christians who lost it and committed mass shootings at U.S. bases in the past.  Just as we had our own NCO who decided to shoot up the Quebec legislature years ago.  If he had issues because of his faith, and a proper screening should have turned that up, than lessons have to be learned.  I'd be more alarmed if he had accomplices, or if this was part of an organized bigger conspiracy.  He should be tried, convicted and left to rot for the rest of his life and not another moment/thought wasted on him after that.

I'll save my thoughts for the wounded, surviving family/friends, and the DOD police (I heard that the female officer was backed up by a male officer who also put rounds into the individual) who was responsible for stopping him.