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Sig Op QL5

I know what you‘re going through... The majority of people on course feel the same way. It all depends on how bad you want it. It‘s not the first time someone has been blacklisted. I myself have had the pleasure. The only thing that keeps me going is although I may not agree with the military I do have a passion to serve my country, and if thats what they ask of me to put up with then thats what I must do. I know there is a lot of grade 2 level teaching and treatment of people but look at it this way. When you‘re posted you won‘t have to deal with it anymore. You‘ll be a person again. You‘ll foget about CFSCE fast enough. As for VR. Goodluck. LOL.. Many people have tried on my course when they found out it was going to be 6 months of basic training again but none have succeded. So just roll with the punches and know that you‘re not alone. Everyone on your course should be helping you deal with it. :cdn:
 
Sarge,
I can only assume that some high school kid at Mcdonalds upset you by speaking above your own admitted intellectual level. And FYI, I run, and administer my own company, and do have individuals working for me. Therefore I feel qualified to criticize leadership. On the battlefield or in the business place, the principals are the same. However, all I can reccomend for you to make up for your intellectual shortcomings is a good discussion on perhaps Plato or Aristotle. You can do this once you retire and find that your skillsets are likely only enough to get you that coveted position assembling Big Mac‘s. Get Bent.

Mr. Seumas Soprano,
The professionalism that you are speaking of, would that be gangbangs in students rooms? sounds proffesional, eh. Or would it be an emotional breakdown, with an instructor crying in front of the troops? Does that make you wanna jump out of the trenches? Or is it senior staff fornicating with students that sets the standard for proffesionalism. The list goes on and on. You can‘t tell me about how professional the staff are, I know otherwise. Fortunately that DOES NOT mean all staff. I believe however I may have been a bit harsh on my initial posting and my point has likely been lost since. I hold the utmost respect for the military rank structure, I cannot speak enough of how important I believe military bearing to be. That is not an issue. The issue at hand is the individuals put in to these positions of authority. So often ego‘s get involved and decisions are made irresponsibly. When I say ego‘s I can use Lui‘s case specifically. Somebody, somewhere saw Lui‘s comments on this board. Someone somewhere got offended. What Lui did is not wrong. Yet because someone didn‘t like what he had to say the hammer came down on him. Does it seem right that censorship can hinge on what some officer‘s opinion is. Do these individuals believe they are important enough to stand in the way of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. They are your rights and mine and these individuals are a danger to you and me. The last time the CF tried to cover something up and take it away from the public eye the Airborne ended up disbanded. Likely because of the same proffessional conduct you speak of. Rank structure is the foundation for the military. But remember, Stalin and Hitler were both the ultimate commanders of their armies, does that mean they were proper? One must remember wearing a rank does not make you right it just means you have a bigger stick.

Perhaps if one of these so-called leaders had taken a look at why Lui‘s attitude was so poor they probably would have discovered that it is not because he is sub-par, lacking, or weak. They may have realized that he was just one of the few trying to make it better for everyone as a soldier. Even the highly sensitive higher ups that saw his comments as a national security breach; or something like that. I can vouch for the fact that he is a decent soldier, and a better citizen. People forget that attitude is a reflection of leadership.

A thought to remember: Canadian Soldiers subject themselves to tasks higher than most any individuals in society. We willingly give up some of the rights that our fellow citzens enjoy. Should we then not be the first amongst equals when it comes to the few rights and freedoms we have left?
 
I have to admit I can see some valid points to both sides of this argument. I agree with there being an old boys club in the reserves. Nothing like seeing the COs son get the soldier of the year award and being forced to parade to see it presented to him by his own father. As regards making things better for your fellow soldier; there are channels for this. I don‘t agree with other posters dressing up what Lui was doing as some type of magnanimous act of self sacrifice. He was dogging it and dogging it hard. he got what he deserved.
 
You know, we all have to try to remember just what the **** we signed on the line for... Was it for the easy money? (If it is, thne buddy, you‘re in the wrong profession, and get the **** out!) is it for the love of the country? Is it to be able to have the HONOUR of serving your country, because as it was already mentioned, it isn‘t a duty here in canada, it‘s a honour. Listen, I just got back from CFSCE. I was on my threes, and sure, CFSCE does deserve the nickname "Canadian Forces School for Cock Enthusiasts" but you learn how to play the game. My MCpl used to piss us off. His favorite line was "you might learn to play the game, but i reserve the right to change the rules at any time, and I also reserve the right not to tell you about the changes in the rules" yes, it ticked us off during inspection, but you know what? these people aren‘t out to get you, they‘re only doing their job, and you know, when you reach their level of experience, and knowledge, then you‘ll have some whinny pte grumbling about his instructors and saying how stuck up they are.

I do admit that there are some people who are out on a powertrip, and those people need to be stopped, but there are also those NCMs that just galavant the forces breaking every rule they can, getting their whole course into ****, because they have no "Espirt de corps" and only give a rat‘s *** about number one. These are just some bad apples. You don‘t burn down the whole orchard because you have one or 2 bad apples, neither do you burn the whole orchard down because of some bad seedlings. No, you rip them out, and plant better and stronger ones in their place.

Anyways... Just remember why your in this man‘s army. Is it for your glory? Or for the glory of this beautiful country of ours? :salute: :cdn:
 
Communication Reserve..... hard courses.... *cough* isnt that an oxymoron? ;-)

Just kidding folks, I really do not know enough about the Army to know; but it seems like all of you siggies are making out Comm to be a really hard trade - full of cock and the like. Is it really compared to the combat arms and such?
 
I don‘t think that what is being complained about is the difficulty of the course. What happens at CFSCE, and what it is famous for, is the school‘s insane attention to minutae. If CFSCE could, they would attempt to repeal the laws of physics for the sake of it. At least in some courses what you are asked to do can in fact be done. Many of CFSCE requests cannot. IE not to speak to any member in uniform outside of your course or course staff. Try getting a coffee from the CFSCE canteen without speaking to the guy behind the counter. This was the insane rule during my course as we were allowed to drink at the time. This meant I couldn‘t even phone my parents to let them know I hadn‘t accidently been killed; had my father answered the phone I would have been in breach of the rule technically.
 
sob my edit went to **** .
Holding someone accountable for something they say on a web site is ****.
Just like the inner circle clubs that decide who gets what course and tasking are.
Commenting on why someone is a private with 2 and a half years in is pretty weak too. I was one for almost 4.
Attacking someone on a personal level is the actions of someone with out anything intelligent to say.
I wonder what the army would be like now if the person who piped up about the clothe the soldier program or the fact that soldiers need more money because they were using food stamps kept his mouth shut or were told to shut up and deal with it. I know i like getting paid almost 50% more than what i did for a day in 1996.
 
Nobody ever said that Lui was a man of self sacrifice, instead I would see his attitude to be that of self preservation. But the reason Lui has become the poster boy he is for many of the individuals I know, myself included, are these.

It would be intellectually dishonest to tell yourself that all good soldiers give 110% all the time. That just ain‘t true. The only reason Lui was hung out was because an example needed to be made. It was a quick brutal object lesson the troops could not fail to understand. I believe there object lesson was this. Speak of CFSCE in a negative light, and pay dearly. As for Lui doggin it, eh. If I went to the barracks on any given day I could probably find 2 out of 10 soldiers that don‘t dog it. The other six are trying to survive and do their share, and their share only. This is where Lui falls. The other 2 are generally write offs that can‘t run from the shacks to the Tim Hortons to get their donuts. Make no mistake gentleman Lui is being persecuted because he said something about his attitude on a public site. Not because he was doggin‘ it. By all means had our version of "big brother" persecuted/prosectuted anyone outside of CFSCE for something they said about a military course or anything of the sort the militaries lawyers would have their work cut out for them. But because the military feels that they do not have to be charter compliant, only charter proof, they feel they can abuse their powers, and violate a man‘s right to privacy and stand in the way of free speech. It was those soldiers before us that fought and died to earn us the privilige of having those rights, and at anytime you could be sent to fight for those rights again. Should we not at least be able to exercise our rights. If not than the Canadian Government should re-consider conscription, or perhaps a military state.
 
At the time Lui left CFSCE, had he completed his trades training?

If not, is changing his MOC the only way that he can complete his trades training?
 
If Lui has been wronged, he can file a redress. He seemed to think it was great sport earlier, to get on this means and deliberately push people‘s buttons by declaring how slack he was. If he got caught - boo hoo hoo :crybaby: Maybe you need to go back and read some of his earlier posts GK. Some of the Board members even tried to help him, and not by flaming him, either.

"Big Brother"??? Now that‘s really funny. This is a public forum, for pete‘s sake. If I‘m in the barracks doing my best impersonation of the RSM, and he walks in and hears me - too bad for me. Some of you guys are really something - where does it stop? "The Man" makes us cut our hair too short - there‘s no practical purpose to that - it violates my Constitutional Rights" There are so many safety nets and policies, and checks/balances in place now, you‘ve already driven a portion of the old guys out of the Army - any gross abuses are rare, I would imagine. The Military is a closed society, which you asked to enter - if you don‘t like it, turn your kit in. If I ask to join the Masons, and don‘t like what I see, I get out.

Back room decisions? Of course - much of the business of the Regiment is conducted in the Mess. That‘s not secret. Officers and Snr NCOs are too busy running the Regiment to stop and have board meetings (or they should be). A lot of miscellaneous business is settled at the Mess - not just who "they‘re going to pick on" next.. :rolleyes:
 
It‘s me. I just changed my displayed name to something more appropriate. After all, I think the biggest reason I got in trouble was because I put my name down. That was really dumb, and I know it. Guess that‘s youthful stupidity and idealism at work.

Anywho, I didn‘t mean I was blacklisted from CFSCE as an official thing. Just the way things ended up my last couple of days there, it was quite clear to me that CFSCE didn‘t want me back. That‘s all good, though, considering I don‘t ever want to return to CFSCE either. I really didn‘t want to come back this year after the gong show last year, which I attribute much of my bitterness too. :p I wanted to see Kingston, but definitely not CFSCE.

GK, with many things you hit the nail right on the head in your description of me and what I think. You, more eloquently, expressed what I failed to.

Right now, though, I just want to say screw it and let it be. I guess that‘s somewhat hard, considering how I opened up pandora‘s box. So I‘ll just try not to aggrevate the situation by saying anything too stupid about CFSCE or the CF.

I thought it funny how most veteran instructors here said they could weed me out on course for being the soldier I am. While I know my course members could tell very easily, I know the instructors never could. That is, until the end. It came as a real shock to my instructors that I would do what I did. I regret having grieved them, since they rank up there as some of the best instructors I‘ve had on a military course and I respected each of them. But it‘s a fact, no instructor can inspect thier troops minds, thoughts and opinions if they don‘t let them.

I made a showing as a soldier who was on time, worked hard and smart, and shut up on the job. Maybe I‘m wrong, but I‘ve never met any instructor or supervisor who ever asked for more; and if they did, everyone knew that they were the ones being unprofessional. My staff never did, which is why I respected them all.

That‘s the only thing I think I have left to say on the matter, my instructors rocked.
 
I find it utterly hard to believe that you think the grievance process is effective. Now that‘s funny. I happen to have a fairly intimate knowledge of the grievance process. Let me broaden your horizons. The grievance process is something that was put in place to make soldiers feel better about getting f*****. Nothing more, nothing less. Even under the "streamlined" grievance process I know all too well of instances where individuals are going on 1 yr from the date of submission without a ruling. Most individuals I know that have gone through the grievance process find it slow, painful, and the whole situation just causes severe duress as it poisons the working atmosphere. That aside what is our friend here to grieve? Nothing, he got c**k. Administrative actions taken against him? You can‘t grieve a charge.

You are absoloutely right that this is a public forum. Which means what? It still means that he is getting hammered on because he expressed his opinion. People are caught up in the fact that "he got caught". Caught for what? This is the whole foundation of the argument. He did nothing wrong, and therefore should not ever have to concern himself with being "caught", that‘s garbage. He did not use DND computers, he didn‘t discredit any individuals by name, he didn‘t release protected information. He explained what his attitude was, and complained about how the course was run. Big deal. I apologize for the big brother thing, I assumed a simple comparison would be effective. No such luck. What it means is that somebody wanted to shut him up. They gave it to him good. Do "they" not qualify as a big brother of some description? Somebody is watching and waiting, that‘s undeniable. Otherwise, if there was no big brother our friend shouldn‘t have been touched. Right?

Once and for all lets put the membership issue to rest. The "get out if you don‘t like it" comment is wearing thin. It‘s an assanine comment that holds no weight. Whether I am a soldier or a citizen these injustices are still injustices. Do you think anybody, with the exception of masochists, like getting screwed or ****ed around. It is not about being in or out. It is about right and wrong, black, white, and sometimes grey, moral or immoral. In or out doesn‘t change the fact that our friend was still wronged. You say the military is a closed society. It better not be, as the citizens tax dollars pay soldiers wages, equipment, and for whenever the military feels like taking administrative action against young soldiers for expressing his/her opinions, and attitudes about a specific topic.
It‘s 2003, do you know where your tax dollars are?

Just to set a couple of things straight. The 1867 Constitution was taken out in 1982 as it was deemed ineffective for the time. It was replaced by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In our friends case it is simple. Under Section 2.(b) of the charter he is guranteed fundamental freedoms. Read it, you may realize after that we can‘t just string ‘em all up right away.

Lastly you say gross abuses are rare. Man, take off the blinders. Just because you don‘t see them does not mean they don‘t happen. Higher ranks are given sweeping powers,the only checks and balances in the military when dealing with NCM‘s is a grievance. By the time a grievance has to go in you have already been screwed. If you think that is a check or a balance you are demented. If these people had a proper check and balance system there would be no grievances, would there.
 
So, if it‘s THAT awful, why are you in? Just for a pay cheque? Maybe you‘re going to write all these wrongs, single-handedly; thats certainly an admirable goal, I suppose.

I will agree on one thing, the system is not perfect. That is what the Chain of Command is for. Maybe everyone in your Unit, of a higher rank is out to oppress you - I don‘t know. Airing dirty laundry on a public forum (whining) is more effective than the grievance process? Maybe you should mutiny, GK - then cry because the system is unfair, and you are just standing up for your rights. If you feel that strongly, disobey - after all, you‘ve got the Charter of Rights behind you. Instead of biting the hand that feeds you, use your huevos.....stand up to the cruel system. If you believe in what you say, the Charter of Rights will protect you - right? Otherwise, drop the victim act - THAT is what‘s growing thin around here.

There‘s lots of "closed societies" that taxes pay for. Wander down to the local RCMP office, and ask for some inside information. Cops have a thin blue line, firefighters have a thin red line, correctional officers have it too. Are you truly that naive, and idealistic??

Injustices? You poor thing. There‘s injustices everywhere. My employer puts injustices on me. If it‘s not illegal, I‘m S.O.L Nobody forces me in the door every morning, with a gun to my head. I can leave anytime I‘ve had enough. Nobody ever said life was fair.

For such a fan of free speech, you sure cry alligator tears, when someone‘s opinion is different than yours. :)
 
I hear McDonalds is hiring all the time for MIT‘s (Manager In Training). It appears there are a few potential candidates, that have the whole system figured out.

Tc...
VVV
 
Actually as you learned during basic, during one of those boring classroom talks, you give up your rights under the 1982 charter of rights and freedoms and agree to be bound by the code of service discipline. Under section 19.14 of the QROs

19.14 – IMPROPER COMMENTS
(1) No officer or non-commissioned member shall make remarks or pass criticism tending to bring a superior into contempt, except as may be necessary for the proper presentation of a grievance under Chapter 7 (Grievances). (15 June 2000)

(2) No officer or non-commissioned member shall do or say anything that:
(a) if seen or heard by any member of the public, might reflect discredit on the Canadian Forces or on any of its members; or
(b) if seen by, heard by or reported to those under him, might discourage them or render them dissatisfied with their condition or the duties on which they are employed.
 
I have worked in the offshore diving / construction industry all over the world, for many different companies - and from that and from talking to other people I can say that there is not a place, a country, a company, a workplace etc ad nauseum where people don‘t feel p***d off at some time, or where some injstice does not exist. It is a fact of life, cannot be avoided, accept it, deal with it. This applies to every facet of society, and from my travels, we in Canada should feel very, very fortunate indeed that we live in what is probably the finest nation on the globe. Try a couple months in Nigeria mate, that would open your eyes up a bit. Sort yourself out, and get in the real world.
 
Ahhh - a Bullseye from Hogan‘s Hero, and some voices of reason, from the others. ya big meanies :evil:
 
Civi side you can tell your boss to *uck off and quit on the spot. You‘ll be pressed for cash but thats about it. In the military if you get $hit brought down on you in month 4 of your 3 year contract your in for a crappy few years and you can‘t ‘just get out‘ Even reserve side they can find ways to be jerks. You don‘t have your balls-hang-out gray PT shorts? Well you haven‘t offically handed in all your kit.

Oh ya, don‘t mention mutiny. APPARENTLY it‘s a big deal to pass around a memo getting people to sign it in order to kick someone out of the mess :)
 
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