Single Quarters & Rations (R&Q) [MERGED]

[SupersonicMax]

CFHA cannot charge you more than 25% of your salary towards a Q, no matter how much the Q normally costs.  It's in the regs.  25% of 1300 is 325$.

 

[Strike]

Okay, I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Sure RMC cadets essentially get paid to go to school.  Not bad!  But the increases in R&Q and Rec fees (which includes the mess and which RMC cadets probably pay the most out of all the bases) has essentially meant that "take-home" pay for an RMC cadet living in shacks has been the same for at least the past 15+ years.  When I was a cadet I was making less than $250/pay after all the fees.

It's do-able from 1st to 3rd year, but when you're in 4th year you suddenly have a huge amount of expenses to worry about. Mess kit (cheaper to get in 4th year than later on in one's career because of discounts) is required for officers within a year after their commissioning.  Frames for degree, commissioning and engineering can run several hundred dollars.  Many of the certificates are odd sizes so they have to be special ordered.  Then grad, depending how big your family is, can also rack up the cost.  Hotels, meals, transportation, etc.

Yes, these things aren't really must haves, but remember that these people spend 4 years taking it every which way just to get a degree and commission.  Grad is a big event and you want to make sure all those who want to come can come.  That gets expensive.  I had 11 people come to my grad.  There was no way my parents were going to pay for grad ball tickets.  I also had an aunt and two cousins who had money issues so I paid for them as well as my two brothers.  At $100/ticket you can do the math.  The only thing that saved my a$$ was that they all shoved themselves in my parents' tiny house!  ;D

The only way I could have paid for grad (thankfully I had a credit line) would have been to abstain from buying anything, including a Timmies coffee, for 6 months.

 

[Larkvall]

I went to a civvie university back in the early 90s and I really don't see what the issue is here. I am really shocked that you guys find these costs out of line. I was paying pretty close to the same thing back then. An 8x10 room is small? You guys are actually contributing to your pension while in university?

I am just too shocked.  ???

 

[SupersonicMax]

The thing is that you cannot take a job on the side to supplement your income.  As a civy, you can do whatever you want, if you're short money.  I would not mind paying the money if the food was actually good.  There is no option for RMC OCdt to get off rations if they do not like them. 

8X10 room is small when that's your living/sleeping/studying space and the only area you have.

 

[Larkvall]

The thing is that you cannot take a job on the side to supplement your income.  As a civy, you can do whatever you want, if you're short money.  I would not mind paying the money if the food was actually good.  There is no option for RMC OCdt to get off rations if they do not like them. 

8X10 room is small when that's your living/sleeping/studying space and the only area you have.

Supplement my income? I didn't have an income to supplement! Secondly, if you are in a tough program there is no way you can take a part time job.

I have spent many years in 8x10 rooms or smaller! Why does one need more while going to university and I have been a civillian all my life! How big are rooms on our ships?

I don't want to get into a pissing match on who had it tougher, but for crying out loud RMC grads are going to be leading men and women on the battlefield.

I am still too shocked.  ???

 

[aesop081]

8X10 room is small when that's your living/sleeping/studying space and the only area you have.

We're all crying, we realy are.

:

 

[SupersonicMax]

Supplement my income? I didn't have an income to supplement! Secondly, if you are in a tough program there is no way you can take a part time job.

I did Mech Eng, which was a demanding program and I would have had some time to get a part time job.

I have spent many years in 8x10 rooms or smaller! Why does one need more while going to university and I have been a civillian all my life! How big are rooms on our ships?

I forgot to mention that you are 2 in an 8X10 room. 

I'm not a difficult person.  I normally adapt well to pretty much anything that is thrown at me.  I'm not saying that RMC kids should have bigger rooms.  However, you can't argue that living in an actual house is better on a quality of life point of view than living 2 in an 8X10 room.

I don't want to get into a pissing match on who had it tougher, but for crying out loud RMC grads are going to be leading men and women on the battlefield.

What does the size of the room someone lived in in University has to do with how well they will lead people in a conflict?

CDN Aviator:  I'm not looking for sympathy at all.  I'm not whining, but I sure can understand what they went through and how it could be improved upon.  Ridiculous fees for crappy food and small rooms is one of them along with the 80$ or whatever it is now a month for mess dues. 

 

[armyvern]

We're all crying, we realy are.

:

Geez, they cram 4 troops into rooms that large here; beats the hell out of modular.

When I was in Civ U (Mount Allison) that was approx my room size for the roomie and I. If I go back and figure out the costs for my meal plan/tuition/dorm fees ... it runs pretty much the same as RMC - and I wasnt collecting a cheque either. I actually had to go out and work at night (every night ~ well except for the labs that I bothered to show up for) to get any spending money.

The food sucked there too. 

 

[Big Foot]

/rant
I wanted to avoid weighing in on this however... Max, yeah, sure, living in shacks and losing half your paycheque to rations and quarters sucks but as we both know, thats something you're getting into when you sign up to go to RMC. Does the food suck? Sure, but it's a matter of perspective on that on. As the argument has already been made about getting paid to go to school and having all essentials covered vice going to civvy u and having to pay for it all yourself and find time to work in order to survive, I'm not going to beat a dead horse on this one. Consider for a second that some bases have living in policies whereby all new privates on the base are required to live in the shacks for a year. The rooms are small, the food isn't wonderful and its obscenely expensive. I'm also a lot more supportive of dropping that policy before dropping the live in requirement for RMC. RMC is for all intensive purposes a long course with other courses interspersed and as such, there are course elements that exist in daily life such as morning inspections, morning formups, things like that. To suggest that RMC students, with the possible exception of 4th years, shouldn't have to live in those tiny 8x10 rooms with no other personal space is to overlook the desired effect of getting people used to living and working in close quarters with other people for long periods of time. As well, in terms of pay, RMC cadets have zero right to complain about how little they get paid when you look at what their counterparts at say, West Point, make. In short, you don't like only getting $200-300 every two weeks to do whatever you want with since all your other expenses are already covered (including internet I might add)? Time to re-examine why you're there in the first place. RMC cadets have it easy considering the measure of financial security they enjoy. Anyways, I'll get off my soapbox now and return you all to your regularily scheduled thread...
/end rant

 

[SupersonicMax]

I wanted to avoid weighing in on this however... Max, yeah, sure, living in shacks and losing half your paycheque to rations and quarters sucks but as we both know, thats something you're getting into when you sign up to go to RMC.

Actually, I was never told thad when I joined, but that's a totally different topic altogether...

Does the food suck? Sure, but it's a matter of perspective on that on.

When the perspective is generalized to more than the majority of people, it becomes a fact. 

As the argument has already been made about getting paid to go to school and having all essentials covered vice going to civvy u and having to pay for it all yourself and find time to work in order to survive, I'm not going to beat a dead horse on this one.

What about the ROTP CivyU? They don't have to pay for anything and make at least the same as an RMC ROTP.

Consider for a second that some bases have living in policies whereby all new privates on the base are required to live in the shacks for a year. The rooms are small, the food isn't wonderful and its obscenely expensive.

I'm not suggesting that RMC kid should be living in the Qs.  All I'm suggesting is that it would cost less to live in a PMQ rather than live in the Shacks, which is absolutely ridiculous, considering the pros/cons of both (yes, one being having more space.  People generally pay MORE to get MORE space and BETTER food, rather than the opposite in the RMC case)  I was just using the PMQ as a comparison base to justify how ridiculous the living expenses at RMC are.

In short, you don't like only getting $200-300 every two weeks to do whatever you want with since all your other expenses are already covered (including internet I might add)?

Internet was't covered when I was there and it was also quite expensive if my memory serves right.

Time to re-examine why you're there in the first place. RMC cadets have it easy considering the measure of financial security they enjoy.

While yes, I am in to serve, if it was going to be for free, like most people here I suppose, I wouldn't be here.

Because an Ocdt normally doesn't have much expenses, it doesn't make it right to charge an absolutly ridiculous amount of money on R&Q, just for the sake of it.  As I said, it is cheaper for an RMC OCdt to rent a PMQ and cook his own food than live in the Shacks and eat crap food.  Does it make sense to you??  Because "it's been that way for years" doesn't make it right. 

I think it's time to start the JOPA...

 

[Strike]

I will jump in again with a few points/rebuttals.

You cannot compare the costs thrust upon privates who must live in shacks to ROTP cadets because, guess what, the basic private makes more and pays less.

The comparison between living in shacks and PMQs is a very valid one that has been discussed and argued several times by many members on this forum.  So why is everyone jumping on the ROTP cadet that gets the lowest pay?  Sure, he's getting a "formal" education, but that's the job that he signed up for.  All those others that have complained in the past are also blessed with a steady job and paycheck.  Why don't you hammer on them too?  Next time someone complains about the lack of facilities in Timbucktu I guess I can tell them to suck it up because they're getting PLD?

As for the whole insurance/car thing, I have to say that this is a luxury and I have no sympathy.  It doesn't fit in Maslow's hierarchy of needs.  Last time I checked, transportation wasn't in there. 

 

[armyvern]

You cannot compare the costs thrust upon privates who must live in shacks to ROTP cadets because, guess what, the basic private makes more and pays less.

This Officer cadet's shacks are going up to 493 / month ergo the OP.

My Pte is already paying 684 a month here for R&Q (I just asked him); and their's will be going up by that legally allowable 4% increase too.

My Pte pays higher tax rates and he isn't getting a University degree out of the deal either. I guess that "free" University education comes with a cost after all - a voluntary cost. At the end of the day, the Officer is benefitting in the long run.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Vern, 492$ is, I assume, only rations, since it was 420$ when I was there.  Shacks are an extra 150$ to shack up with someone else.  Pretty close isn't it?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Mess kit (cheaper to get in 4th year than later on in one's career because of discounts) is required for officers within a year after their commissioning.

Just a quick point, its actually 6 months IAW CFP 265, Chap 2 - Policy and Appearance, Section 1 - Dress Policy, Para 57(a):

57. Acquisition
a. All Regular Force officers are required to be in possession of mess dress No. 2, which shall be procured at individual expense.  Newly-commissioned officers are required to obtain this order of dress not later than six months after commissioning.


Sorry for picking fly-sh*t out of pepper...I had nothing else to occupy my time after PT this morning. 

 

[Kat Stevens]

That Pte in Gagetown is also MOC qualified, and contributing to the effort.  Right now an RMC cadet is a tick on the arse of the training system.  Once he's all qualified up, he'll catch up with that privates pay pretty effin fast, no?

 

[Strike]

If he's a basic private he may not yet be fully qualified.

As for the comparison, as Max mentioned that price being rations specific.  Add the cost of quarters and then the rec fee and you've got $723.

Noe, that 25 some-odd bucks might not seem like a big deal for us, but we're all getting a little more than 200-250 a paycheck.

And just for the record, there are no extra services at the Yeo Hall mess at RMC like you would see in any other officers' mess.  It's a steam line with salad and sandwich bar and dishes must be returned by the member to the rack.

 

[dapaterson]

If he's a basic private he may not yet be fully qualified.

As for the comparison, as Max mentioned that price being rations specific.  Add the cost of quarters and then the rec fee and you've got $723.

Noe, that 25 some-odd bucks might not seem like a big deal for us, but we're all getting a little more than 200-250 a paycheck.

And just for the record, there are no extra services at the Yeo Hall mess at RMC like you would see in any other officers' mess.  It's a steam line with salad and sandwich bar and dishes must be returned by the member to the rack.

... and every moment of it is pensionable time, and they are receiving an education that costs the crown 20K per year (or more) at no cost...


Sorry, but I don't cry about the hardships of an RMC student.

 

[PMedMoe]

And just for the record, there are no extra services at the Yeo Hall mess at RMC like you would see in any other officers' mess.  It's a steam line with salad and sandwich bar and dishes must be returned by the member to the rack.

Aren't you able to go in between (or after meals) for a snack?  I know when I used to inpect the kitchens, they would always have out coffee, beverages, fruit, baked goods and cereal boxes, etc at all times, including up to 2000 hrs if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Granted, and I'm not really looking for an argument.  However, that Pte is still working at base supply, as an example, so the army is getting some return on it's investment.  From an economic standpoint the guy at RMC contributes nothing for four years, and is thereby an expense.  In those four years that Pte has contributed a huge volume of work.

 

[Strike]

dapaterson,

The issue is the cost of R&Q of various locations and how people are essentially getting fleeced.  Jamie Oliver can deliver a number of healthy choices at a steam line for 2pounds a head.  Why can't we?

Just because these specific ROTP students decided they didn't want to deal with a mountain of debt doesn't mean they deserve the jab about pensionable time.

If you're going to use that argument then I'm going to use it myself every time someone else complains and you will very quickly see how silly an argument that is.