Single Quarters & Rations (R&Q) [MERGED]

[MJP]

What if the member deploys out to sea or in the field? What if they are gone in a emergency? I'm sure there is no one at the counter after hours to freeze your card.

If you deploy to the field when you get back you submit a ration remit through your clerk to recover the money from the days you were gone.


I don't believe this is an Edmonton Garrison initiative but rather a CF wide one.  We had a few emails and points in the O-grp about the whole thing, and everything pointed towards this being CF wide rather than a local initiative.

As for being on block leave you are not authorized to eat in the mess hall while on annual leave so that point is moot.  The calculation for daily/monthly/yearly rates take your annual leave into account.  As stated here http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/208-01_e.asp

Charges for rations prescribed by  QR&O 208.505 contain a built-in
remission factor for leave (excluding rehabilitation and special leave
forming part of terminal leave), statutory holidays and time off.
Therefore, a member subject to deductions for rations under QR&O

 

[Michael OLeary]

And Michael I get where you're coming from, however I've been through the mess nights where they've under prepared or have over prepared, its hard to balance out, but I don't think forcing rations will achieve more of a balance .

Keep in mind that there is one other undesirable alternative that would satisfy the more ardent bean-counters .... "if you haven't pre-paid or made other prior arrangements, don't expect to be fed in a CF kitchen."

Some poor bastard is trying to find a workable, affordable solution.

 

[Timmy!]

Perhaps part of the problem is an inconsistent expectation that rations will be available to all who wish to "pay as you go".  If there are (pulling numbers out of thin air here) 3000 soldiers on a base and 1000 pay for rations off their pay and 2000 expect to be able to go to the kitchen whenever they want and pay as they go, then how many meals does the kitchen prepare?
If the kitchen underestimates and those who paid up front are the ones without satisfactory service or the food choices or amounts they expect for the money they already agreed to pay, whose fault is that?
If the kitchen then overestimates and a lot of food it discarded, who pays for that, and whose fault is it?
Should the chain of command be required to inform the kitchen a week ahead when their troops might be in camp, or not, so that the KO can make realistic estimates of meal requirements?
Flexibility has its common sense limits too.

My idea is the base, itself, has a budget to the mess. If the mess overestimates that day, then it gets discarded or "reused".
The CF is given a budget for a reason.  

 

[GregC]

As a living in soldier in Edmonton, here are my two huge problems with this system:

1) If the Edmonton mess facility was on par with, say, Trenton's mess, I wouldn't have much of a problem with this forced ration business. But the thing is, there is a reason I haven't eaten at the Edmonton Garrison mess since I first got posted here, and that's because the food is subpar. I truly don't understand how this mess has been allowed to slip when I compare it to other bases around the country.

2) I know I should be used to it by now, but I'm not, and I'm still sick of being treated like a child by the military. They see fit to send me overseas and trust me with a multitude of readied weapons, but they can't seem to trust me to eat healthy and well on my own (troops eating "only ramen noodles and pizza" was quoted in an email posted in the lines).

So, in conclusion, pay as you go should be the norm. If the mess wants to draw in more people, up the quality of food to match the current prices, or drop the prices to reflect current quality in food.

 

[George Wallace]

What it should be... is a card you swipe with each time you go in. And at the end of the month, however many times you went during meals hours you are charge that amount.

Brilliant idea.  And we'll only call in the cooks once you swipe your card, and then they can start preparing you meal.  Would you like your breakfast/lunch/supper as soon as you enter the meal line or after a couple of hours, when they have peeled the potatoes for the number of people who swiped for potatoes, heated up the stoves for the number of people who decided to swipe their card, thawed out the meat for the persons who decided to swipe their cards.   Really practical on paper.  Doesn't work in Real Life.

Food has to be prepared in advance, for a large number of people, so that said people can get into the Messhall and get out in under an hour.  To pay as you go, the way that you insist, it totally inpractical and will cause several hours of delays with each meal served.  So everyone decides to go to Micky D's for lunch, what do you think the Messhall has to do with all the food it prepared?  Who pays for this food?  The people living in quarters pay for it, or it isn't there.  If it isn't there, then there is no requirement for cooks.  No requirement for cooks, means no hot meals in the Field or on ship.  

You have a lot to learn about how many things are financed and how budgets work.  The food has to be paid for by someone.  It also has to be prepared prior to someone swiping a card.  Even with all the "Bean Counters" and their brilliant ideas to cut costs, there will always be waste from the kitchens; or someone is going hungry.

 

[armyvern]

More commonly, what if the member is on block leave? You're still paying for food that isn't making it downrange, and spending more money paying for food that you can consume cause it isn't 400 miles away (in my case at least).

And Michael I get where you're coming from, however I've been through the mess nights where they've under prepared or have over prepared, its hard to balance out, but I don't think forcing rations will achieve more of a balance .

Hmmm, correct me if I'm wrong , but do not most all Bases who provide the 7 & 3 full weekly/monthly meal plan cease rations during periods of leave for those members?? I've seen bases where the OR ceased upon processing the leave pass ... and others where the meal card was turned in so that it couldn't be used during these peiods ... and the members not charged during their block leaves/absences on courses, tours etc.

Has this changed?

 

[Michael OLeary]

More commonly, what if the member is on block leave? You're still paying for food that isn't making it downrange, and spending more money paying for food that you can consume cause it isn't 400 miles away (in my case at least).

Actually, I believe the ration cost calculations have always factored in the expectation that the members is away for a certain period throughout the year.

I stand to be corrected, is there an experienced KO or Food Svcs Offr on the forum that can educate us?

 

[George Wallace]

When Living-in members go on Block Lve, they turn in their Meal Cards to the OR and they are taken off Ration Strength.  Those numbers are passed on to the Kitchens.

 

[armyvern]

My idea is the base, itself, has a budget to the mess. If the mess overestimates that day, then it gets discarded or "reused".
The CF is given a budget for a reason.  

Different budgeting system for the kitchens than for your QMs.

Kitchens are buying perishable items --- let's just say that if there was NOT a ton of wastage etc occuring with the pay as you go way of doing business ... they wouldn't be seeking alternatives to the situation.

And ... why should the single guys/gals (unless on course, duty, deployed, field, asea etc ... like the married folk who then have theirs covered too) eat for free out of the CF budget?? We married folks make the same and we have kids to provide groceries for -- ergo we should eat for free too so that we can buy more groceries for our families. 

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Hmmm, correct me if I'm wrong , but do not most all Bases who provide the 7 & 3 full weekly/monthly meal plan cease rations during periods of leave for those members?? I've seen bases where the OR ceased upon processing the leave pass ... and others where the meal card was turned in so that it couldn't be used during these peiods ... and the members not charged during their block leaves/absences on courses, tours etc.

Has this changed?

If there is some Admin trick to it I haven't heard of, then I stand corrected. All i know is that i was on full rations when I was on Christmas leave, and buying groceries for myself back home at the same time .... kinda redundant no?

 

[MJP]

Hmmm, correct me if I'm wrong , but do not most all Bases who provide the 7 & 3 full weekly/monthly meal plan cease rations during periods of leave for those members?? I've seen bases where the OR ceased upon processing the leave pass ... and others where the meal card was turned in so that it couldn't be used during these peiods ... and the members not charged during their block leaves/absences on courses, tours etc.

Has this changed?

The CFAO hasn't changed.......I modified my post above to include the link.

 

[Michael OLeary]

The CFAO hasn't changed.......I modified my post above to include the link.

And here's the related DAOD:

DAOD 30-12  Provision and Sale of Food Services

General

To support the mission of the DND and the CF, personnel and facilities have been allocated to provide public food services to DND funded customers. The operating budget for each CF organization providing public food services is based on the cost of food services that must be provided at public expense. The standard allowance rates for public meals and increments are promulgated annually and represent the standard food cost for one meal-day in accordance with established standards.

Food Services for Visiting CF Members and DND Employees

In addition to providing public food services to CF members on unit ration strength, meals may be provided to visiting CF members and DND employees who are authorized to receive public meals under CFAO 36-14, Entitlement to Meals and Public Rations and who are on the establishment of another organization. The organization providing public food services to visiting CF members and DND employees may incur costs that are not provided for in their operating budget. Any budget shortfall shall be resolved in accordance with the direction on cost recovery in this DAOD.

 

[armyvern]

When Living-in members go on Block Lve, they turn in their Meal Cards to the OR and they are taken off Ration Strength.  Those numbers are passed on to the Kitchens.

That's what happens here. I was just wondering if it were still the standard. Thanks George.

 

[Timmy!]

Army Vern~ Everyone loves Steak night! I even sneak over. Or in the dog house.

Michael O`Leary~ I agree with your 2nd last statement.

George Wallace~ Practical on paper yes... but if there was some numbers they could play with. Like an average the year before. Or average it out per unit. And go off that. Or some magical formula. You always make a intresting points on your replies. And yes I do need to learn a tad more about the budgets. I do invoicing in my job at less 3 times a week. So I know the "business like feeling".


MJP~ I wasn't honestly aware you could do such a thing. Now I know. Good information.


BinRat55~ You should be able to walk in the mess and help yourself to a meal at DND cost. Just don't try it now because I said so.

 

[X Royal]

Should the chain of command be required to inform the kitchen a week ahead when their troops might be in camp, or not, so that the KO can make realistic estimates of meal requirements?

Michael: I believe that the chain of command does have a certain responsibility. I'm not referring to 5 or 10 people but if a group the size of a company or battalion is scheduled to be away than the KO should be informed of the fact as soon as possible. Even if the absence is unscheduled, if the numbers warrant it the KO should be notified as soon as possible.

Best Wishes: Rick

 

[Michael OLeary]

Michael: I believe that the chain of command does have a certain responsibility. I'm not referring to 5 or 10 people but if a group the size of a company or battalion is scheduled to be away than the KO should be informed of the fact as soon as possible. Even if the absence is unscheduled, if the numbers warrant it the KO should be notified as soon as possible.

Best Wishes: Rick

Yes, when units or subunits will be away from base, I was referring to the expectation that the CoC might be able to further refine numbers for kitchen forecasting for those who think the solution here is more staff effort to ensure the kitchens meet their wishes.

 

[armyvern]

Michael: I believe that the chain of command does have a certain responsibility. I'm not referring to 5 or 10 people but if a group the size of a company or battalion is scheduled to be away than the KO should be informed of the fact as soon as possible. Even if the absence is unscheduled, if the numbers warrant it the KO should be notified as soon as possible.

Best Wishes: Rick

This is usually the case.

If the Bn is going out  to the field on ex etc, then their QM is submitting their nominal roll into the system for IMP entitlement for that ex. Most kitchens are well aware of planned ex/ops etc.

Regarding unscheduled ... that's a little bit more difficult to deal with ... especially if it's a "today" kind of deal or a "gone for the next week" kind of deal, because the food for that next week is already ordered (possibly mostly delivered) and thus ... spoilage or no spoilage, the kitchen is obligated to pay the contractor. That's part of the nature of the CFs business though.

I'm sure that the Kitchen here had a huge write-off which had to be "eaten" when 2RCR found themselves deployed to NS in the aftermath of Hurricane Juan ... or 4ESR to New Orleans/Turkey with DART. In the same manner --- dom ops may find the kitchen innudated with pers requiring feeding unannounced and unscheduled. 9/11 saw me manning the cot by my desk for a week til the fly-away kit was gone and eating in the Yukon Galley the entire time (and there were a huge number of "mes" doing the same thing).

Dom Op necessity for write-off is a different matter entirely from that of "people may show to eat tonight, but they may not." That's the situation they are trying to fix. The others (such as ex) can be and are forecasted, dom ops are unavoidable.

Single guys/gals living in shacks --- not showing, is obviously being considered by some to be "avoidable."

 

[George Wallace]

Regarding unscheduled ... that's a little bit more difficult to deal with ... especially if it's a "today" kind of deal or a "gone for the next week" kind of deal, because the food for that next week is already ordered (possibly mostly delivered) and thus ... spoilage or no spoilage, the kitchen is obligated to pay the contractor. That's part of the nature of the CFs business though.

I'm sure that the Kitchen here had a huge write-off which had to be "eaten" when 2RCR found themselves deployed to NS in the aftermath of Hurricane Juan ... or 4ESR to New Orleans/Turkey with DART. In the same manner --- dom ops may find the kitchen innudated with pers requiring feeding unannounced and unscheduled. 9/11 saw me manning the cot by my desk for a week til the fly-away kit was gone and eating in the Yukon Galley the entire time (and there were a huge number of "mes" doing the same thing).

Dom Op necessity for write-off is a different matter entirely from that of "people may show to eat tonight, but they may not." That's the situation they are trying to fix. The others (such as ex) can be and are forecasted, dom ops are unavoidable.

Not as big a problem as you portray.

Troops still need to eat on those "unexpected" deployments.  Fresh rations would be diverted by the Ration Depot to the Units deployed, rather than sent to the Kitchens, or budgeted from the Kitchens to the Field Kitchens deployed.

 

[TCBF]

Rations are assessed monthly based on eleven months.  In other words, you are paying for eleven months rations over twelve months. Ergo - no remit for annual lv.

Regarding embarcation/disembarcation and special leave, THAT requires a remit.

 

[George Wallace]

Suggest you speak with your chain of command or Coy/Sqn clerk if you have one.  You should receive a ration remit or have been ceased rations and (as they do in Pet) turned in your meal card in order to get your Christmas leave pass.  That being said, oversights do happen, so if this is the case, you should still be able to recover the rations you paid during a period of leave when you were away from the base (and your leave pass reflected same).

That being said, if you were at fault, then you really shouldn't complain.  If the system failed to inform you, you should be able to get a remit; but if you failed to heed their warning, then the bill is in your hands.