Single Quarters & Rations (R&Q) [MERGED]

[armyvern]

Not as big a problem as you portray.

Troops still need to eat on those "unexpected" deployments.  Fresh rations would be diverted by the Ration Depot to the Units deployed, rather than sent to the Kitchens, or budgeted from the Kitchens to the Field Kitchens deployed.

Ration Depots haven't existed for many a year decade plus George. I last worked in one as a Pte -- and I'm old now.

Rations (fresh/frozen for meals) are now handled by B Foods ... and are ordered by them, and then direct delivered by the supplier to the Base Kitchen facility.

Thus, that food MUST be paid for, regardless of whether there is a last minute deployment, or every living in member decides to eat all his meals out of the Mess that week.

We at Supply ship out the old Ops Stock IMPs for those dom ops and deployments which are unscheduled.

Forget not also, that once a troop is deployed/field/asea their meals (ie fresh is flying kitchen is deployed) is at public expense and thus coming out of the CF budget, not the Kitchens operating budget ... their budget comes from the people who dine at the kitchen. In my scenario below where I had to eat at the Yukon Galley ... the Kitchen recovered the costs of my meals into their coffers from the OP Apollo (CF) budget.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Suggest you speak with your chain of command or Coy/Sqn clerk if you have one.  You should receive a ration remit or have been ceased rations and (as they do in Pet) turned in your meal card in order to get your Christmas leave pass.  That being said, oversights do happen, so if this is the case, you should still be able to recover the rations you paid during a period of leave when you were away from the base (and your leave pass reflected same).

Guess my OR is getting a visit from me tomorrow

 

[meni0n]

Doesn't Pet got pay as you go? You had the option of going at he beginning of each month and put as much as you wanted on the card and then every time you ate you swiped the card. If you still had any money left at the end of the month, the balance was transfered over to the new month.

 

[George Wallace]

Ration Depots haven't existed for many a year decade plus George. I last worked in one as a Pte -- and I'm old now.

Rations (fresh for meals) are now handled by B Foods ... and are direct delivered by the supplier to the Base Kitchen facility.

Could be that in the streamlining of the Food Services, the Larger Kitchens now handle all: ie: on most bases now, all box lunches and hay boxes are out of the Combined/Main Mess.  Fresh Rations for Exercise are also drawn that way.  In essence, the Mess now acts as the Ration Depot on the larger bases.

 

[armyvern]

Could be that in the streamlining of the Food Services, the Larger Kitchens now handle all: ie: on most bases now, all box lunches and hay boxes are out of the Combined/Main Mess.  Fresh Rations for Exercise are also drawn that way.  In essence, the Mess now acts as the Ration Depot on the larger bases.

For on-site exs yes, but it's a different budget.

Exs on-site are forecast. The CF budget then steps in to pay for the meals you're talking about above because the member is now entitled to eat at Crown expense. Your Unit provides them your Units fin code (or the op/ex fin code) and your Unit pays that kitchen to feed your pers.

Money is transferred from the CF budget TO the kitchen to cover their associated costs for providing these meals.

The Kitchens budget is not Crown money per se --- the kitchen is essentially paid BY the Crown to feed troops in the field. Think of them more as a "contractor" (The DAOD may explain it more fully than I am finding myself able to).

Troops living in the shacks (not in the field or on ex/op etc) --- get to pay the Kitchen (ie the contractor) themselves. When the Kitchen orders food for them ... and they don't show ... the kitchen still needs to pay for them and the food they didn't eat.

One can almost liken it to a restaurant: Sometimes business is good and you have no spoilage, sometimes you have tonnes of spoilage because everyone ate at McDs that week. The difference is, if you ARE a restaurant on civvie street -- you've got this great set-up with Revenue Canada whereby you can write-off the costs of that uneaten/spolied food as a business expense as the "cost of doing business".

Of course, Base Kitchens can't do that (write things off when they file their business tax returns), thus the only option is to decrease in any way they can -- the amount of write-offs due to spoliage etc that is being incurred because living in troops are choosing not to show to eat, despite the fact that the kitchen has to operate on the basis of "they MIGHT" show up to eat.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Ration Depots haven't existed for many a year decade plus George. I last worked in one as a Pte -- and I'm old now.

Rations (fresh/frozen for meals) are now handled by B Foods ... and are ordered by them, and then direct delivered by the supplier to the Base Kitchen facility.

Thus, that food MUST be paid for, regardless of whether there is a last minute deployment, or every living in member decides to eat all his meals out of the Mess that week.

We at Supply ship out the old Ops Stock IMPs for those dom ops and deployments which are unscheduled.

Forget not also, that once a troop is deployed/field/asea their meals (ie fresh is flying kitchen is deployed) is at public expense and thus coming out of the CF budget, not the Kitchens operating budget ... their budget comes from the people who dine at the kitchen. In my scenario below where I had to eat at the Yukon Galley ... the Kitchen recovered the costs of my meals into their coffers from the OP Apollo (CF) budget.

Ah that would explaing why I get old(er) rations when in the field at Gagetown  ;D

 

[Sig_Des]

Just to clarify a couple things. Until this new policy takes effect, there is a Cash-card /PAYG option at CFB Edmonton.

And I agree with some of the previous posters, the mess here is Shyte. Think a lot of deep fried crap. I got off rations PDQ after getting here.

Herein lies the rub;

a) The shacks here are at capacity, or damn near to it. Many Sgts and up who were here training for 1-08 are/were staying in hotels downtown. This linked R&Q will likely get some people to start clearing out. I'm already looking at places.

b) While many people know how to eat well on their own, there is only so much one can do with a rice/pressure cooker, microwave, and kettle. Confection oven mikes and hotplates are a no-no. And let's be honest, while some of us may be able to eat healthy like that, a lot of the new people coming in are in the 18-20 range, many there first time away from home, partying it up, and living off microwave dinners and mr. noodles. This can seriously lead to health issues.

Now, I don't want to go to the mess. I can only eat 3 meals a day, and like I said, they're not healthy meals. For physically active people, most nutritionists suggest 5-6 small meals a day. And I can do that for a price comparable to what I'll have to pay here for R & Q.

Besides that, the bde here does what it can to alleviate the financial burden. There's a 3 year entry to Promotion zone to Cpl. And with the PLD coming into effect (and I know it's not as good as people thought it would be) you should be able to afford something in town. Me, I'm already looking.

I don't like it, but I see where it's coming from, and I've decided to try a different living option.

 

[Long in the tooth]

Slightly off topic... I am due to be posted to Edmonton this APS (I'll believe it when I have my posting message).  Are quarters readily avail, or as an IR will I be out on the economy?  Frankly, I don't really care as I already have a home and don't mind the shacks, but a heads up would be nice.

 

[Rowshambow]

Otto, one of the Sgt's currently working for me is IR and lives on the economy, he gets $1700 to pay for rent, parking (if it costs extra) furniture rental, etc so that is something to look into.

As for the R+Q issue, when I was a Sgt doing my rounds while on duty, you seen some pretty horrible things, troops living off of microwaved mac and cheese, crappy hot plates, McD's etc....now go to PT said troops are out of shape, and not living healthy, yes mess food is deepfried, but they do have other choices, sammys for lunch etc, so basically what I am saying is that you complain about mess deep fried, yet you order pizza, McD's etc!!! I lived in the shacks for a few years, and paid roughly the same as what it is now , yet I made 1/2 as much, Tprs and Cpls make a tonne of money now! At the very least it's a hot prepared meal in a sanitary kitchen, not in a 8x10 cell room!

What you should be complaining about is the fact that the Quarters have jumped up so much in price!!!

 

[OldSolduer]

Here's my take from 33 year member:
1. It's about FREEDOM.....let the soldier decide. IF he/she can't hack it, then there are administrative avenues to follow;
and
2. How else is the military going to pay for all the civvie help in the kitchens?

 

[Michael OLeary]

Here's my take from 33 year member:
1. It's about FREEDOM.....let the soldier decide. IF he/she can't hack it, then there are administrative avenues to follow;
and

Well, that's a simple "rah-rah" statement that brings us no closer to a recommended solution.

What choices should the soldier have, and how exactly would you manage the resources to ensure they can be maintained?

2. How else is the military going to pay for all the civvie help in the kitchens?

We pay for a civvy cook or a military cook, either way we have to pay for staff. 

 

[OldSolduer]

The solution is right in front of your nose:

Let the soldiers choose for themselves. Someone had the best idea.....give each soldier, married or single a  swipe card.
THAT was a  solution proposed years ago, but was discarded because it was "too hard".

AND there was no need to be so disrespectful

 

[Sig_Des]

The problem is, and living in the shacks, I see it, there ARE young members (older ones as well) who just can't eat well left of their own accord.

Maybe for a members first posting, and living-in, pay rations for a year. But then, you'd have the individuals who CAN maintain after themselves complaining.

There's NO 100%, make everyone top-to bottom happy, solution.

 

[Michael OLeary]

The solution is right in front of your nose:

Let the soldiers choose for themselves. Someone had the best idea.....give each soldier, married or single a  swipe card.
THAT was a  solution proposed years ago, but was discarded because it was "too hard".

AND there was no need to be so disrespectful

This thread started with:

Effective 1 April 2008 there will be a Re-Linking of rations to quarters in the Edmonton Garrison. Members are to choose one of the following meal plans that best suits their requirements and lifestyle (see below). Those not wishing to "take advantage" of re-Linking will be eligible for PLD as they move out onto the economy.

Notably, no further information was given (if available) on why this course of action was being considered or taken.  We haven’t been given the data on which the staff are taking this decision (if it has been finalized).  Maybe so many troops are taking the PAYG meal option every day that it’s actually more effective to push them into meal plans fits the average usage.  The main point is WE DON’T have the facts, and therefore we can only guess at possible realistic alternatives.

Various options were tossed out through the course of the thread:

It should be pay as you go system. Simple as that.

That is one of 2 status quo options, Full or pay as you go.

What it should be... is a card you swipe with each time you go in. And at the end of the month, however many times you went during meals hours you are charge that amount.

We also saw in the thread the posting of various observations that opened the door to actually examining the processes involved and the challenges the staff face dealing with trying to maintain flexible meal options:

Perhaps part of the problem is an inconsistent expectation that rations will be available to all who wish to "pay as you go".  If there are (pulling numbers out of thin air here) 3000 soldiers on a base and 1000 pay for rations off their pay and 2000 expect to be able to go to the kitchen whenever they want and pay as they go, then how many meals does the kitchen prepare?

If the kitchen underestimates and those who paid up front are the ones without satisfactory service or the food choices or amounts they expect for the money they already agreed to pay, whose fault is that?

If the kitchen then overestimates and a lot of food it discarded, who pays for that, and whose fault is it?

Should the chain of command be required to inform the kitchen a week ahead when their troops might be in camp, or not, so that the KO can make realistic estimates of meal requirements?

Flexibility has its common sense limits too.

So if they introduced the card system to all users they could track consumption to combine with (it would seem) reasonably accurate budgeting of say....the past five or three years, it would give them more accurate estimates.

We also saw the references posted for those who wished to dig deeper:

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/208-01_e.asp

And here's the related DAOD:

DAOD 30-12  Provision and Sale of Food Services

And then, after a few tangential discussions, you weighed in with your 33 years of experience as your disclaimer that

Here's my take from 33 year member:
1. It's about FREEDOM.....let the soldier decide. IF he/she can't hack it, then there are administrative avenues to follow;

You offered no credible explanation to back it up.
You gave no resource-based explanation that would satisfy those anal-retentive bean counters that must just be out to screw the troops.
You offered no explanation of where the funding would come from to support the maximum flexibility this option appears to offer.

And then you get offended because I called you on it.

It’s just so easy to choose the most advantageous course of action “for the troops” when you don’t have to back it up with credible numbers or a workable plan.  Since when is it disrespectful to expect someone who pushes their 33 years of experience in front of a dumb answer to actually back it up with something besides emotive chaff.  Obviously if I don’t agree that makes me the bad guy not thinking of the troops. If you have a real-world solution, please feel free to offer it with the details.

 

[Cannonfodder]

  Sounds like a fairly good deal to have meals prepared and provided for you . Too bad you could not purchase a ration card with say 90 meals on it for 425 dollars , everytime you entered the mess hall you would swipe in . This way the member would get the best deal on his meals and would not lose out if they were away on exercise for 3 weeks or took off for the weekend .

 

[aesop081]

would not lose out if they were away on exercise for 3 weeks or took off for the weekend .

a member away on exercise doesnt "lose out". The rations costs for that period is reimbused to the member on his pay once he/she returns to base.

 

[Long in the tooth]

Do the DAODs replace the old CFAOs (with 140 exemptions for paying rations)?  This is no longer in our purview in the RMS world after amalgamation and delinking of rations in the 90s.  I think Esquimalt was the first to do that (no, I'm pretty damned sure).  Who is responsible for handling ration remits now?

I'm interested to see how this plays out.  I would bet that the move to relink is to motivate the troops to move off base.  Sounds like an Army control issue to me.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I'm interested to see how this plays out.  I would bet that the move to relink is to motivate the troops to move off base.  Sounds like an Army control issue to me.

Why is it that when a decision is being considered that someone doesn’t like, the automatic assumption is that is must be a conspiracy designed to screw the troops?

Why do so many supposedly experienced people reject the simple possibility that it may be an attempt to have a workable plan within the available resource structure.

Let’s look at it from this perspective:

You’re the CQ of a Reserve infantry company.  The OC wants to do some local training for the company of 150 pers.  Because it’s at the local Armoury, there’s no entitlement to be provided rations and no nearby CF kitchen.  You know that you can bring in a catered meal to feed the troops lunch, but the OC reinforces that there’s no available funding and any meal has to be paid for by the troops who consume it.  You’ve got approval to order the meal, but it’s got to be a zero-cost plan.

So, you petition the troops. 

You tell them you’ll bring in the meal for those who pay up front. 75 of the 150 dig out their wallets.  The others figure they’ll be on their own.

And you plan for 75 meals.

But, one of your section commanders suggests that there may be others that will pay for the meal at the time, but don’t want to commit now.

So, you petition the troops again.

25 of the other 75 say they’ll buy the meal at the time (but you don’t get their money now and they won’t absolutely guarantee they’ll buy it).  25 more say they want that option, but can’t be sure until the day happens.  And the last 25 still say they’ll take care of themselves.

So, you’ve collected money to cover 75 meals, and another 50 might eat but didn’t pay.

Now, how many meals do you order?
Who’s going to pay for the ones that don’t get eaten?

You could say you’ll only order meals for the 75 who paid, but isn’t that screwing the troops that just want a flexible option of eating without the commitment?  And then you'd have to stand at the meal line and enforce the fact that only those who paid get to eat.

You could order 125 for those that paid and those that might buy on the day, but you could get stiffed for the rest of the cost.

You could order for 125, but cut back on the meal quality and amounts so that the money you collected from the 75 (the money you know you have) covers the cost.  But that's screwing the 75 and then you could end up with extra money (hmmm, ethics problem there).

Now, your job is to pick the plan that gives everyone what they paid for, ensures that everyone can get what they might want, and ensures maximum flexibility for every soldier.

So, what’s the plan?  Remember, you only collected money to pay for 75 meals up front.

Do you order for 75? 100? 125? 150?

And now what do you do if you accept risk for the cost of 25 meals over the 75 you have covered and order for 100.  Then, on the training day, the weather’s real shitty and all 75 of the ones who didn’t pay up front want to buy the meal to avoid going out to find other options?

What’s the simple solution that makes sure no soldier could possibly have a complaint afterwards?

 

[exgunnertdo]

I love that analogy, Michael O'Leary!  Perfect...

I realize that eating in the kitchen seems expensive but think of the value added, compared to a bag of groceries that those "on the economy" pay:

You don't have to shop for groceries (giving you an hour or so a week of extra time)
You don't have to plan and cook (an hour or so a day, say, for all three meals)
You don't have to clean up, do dishes etc (again, an hour or so a day)
You don't have to invest in a fridge, stove, pots, pans, dishes, and other cooking gear (several hundred dollars using the cheapest stuff, potentially more if you buy quality things).  Even if you rent a place with a fridge/stove, you're paying for them, BTW.
Your "rent" is lower, since you don't have to rent a place with space for cooking

So for the extra money you pay for rations, vs just buying groceries - you're getting back 15+ hours of free time per week and not spending the money on the capital investment required to feed yourself.  Not a bad deal, actually.

(Edited for typo)

 

[armyvern]

Do the DAODs replace the old CFAOs (with 140 exemptions for paying rations)?  This is no longer in our purview in the RMS world after amalgamation and delinking of rations in the 90s.  I think Esquimalt was the first to do that (no, I'm pretty damned sure).  Who is responsible for handling ration remits now?

I'm interested to see how this plays out.  I would bet that the move to relink is to motivate the troops to move off base.  Sounds like an Army control issue to me.

Quaint. The DAOD clearly lays out responsibilities for remits.

It also lays out quite nicely that the people who dine in that Kitchen ... PAY the costs for that kitchen's operation.

So, we have a whole bunch of single guys living in ... who don't dine there --- but MIGHT. So that kitchen has to order food and staff itself based upon those soldiers MAY show up to eat. And, because the food is contracted for delivery it HAS to be paid for regardless of whether those living in choose to show or not.

So, rather than it being an "army control" issue --- I'd suggest to you that it is an attempt to keep costs for operations, staff and spoilage to a MINIMUM. Seeing as how those costs are borne by the LIVING-IN members who are paying those costs and for whom the service exists ... I'd think it's in their best interests and that they'd want their costs to be as low as possible.

Now, the people who would agree with that, of course, would be the guys who (if on a pay as you go plan) actually eat there and don't want to have to pay higher costs for their food to make up for those who didn't eat there that day ... because the kitchen STILL has to operate as if the "non-eaters" MIGHT show up there.

In effect -- a pay as you go system has people who take their meals at the kitchen "paying more than their share" of staffing, overhead & food costs because those who live-in but don't eat there (but must STILL be ordered for -- just in case) don't come in and pay.

It isn't a restaurant -- it can't just write off it's losses like a restaurant can. It HAS to provide those services to living in members just-in-case ... so those living-in-members get the joy of paying those costs. If they then choose to eat somewhere else ... why should the buddy across the hall who does eat in cover the expenses associated with the others' choice?

I see choices with this option. You eat in or your don't. Your choice. You live in or you don't. Again, your choice. The kitchen has no choice BUT to maintain services and associated costs of feeding you regardless of whether you eat-in or not (that's your choice remember) -- so why would you have a choice as to whether or not you bore the costs associated with that choice you made to eat out? Why should your buddies pay more for their kitchen food & operating expenses so that you can eat out every day despite the fact that you are availed of a kitchen facility? The operating expenses don't change, the foods still got to be ordered --- so it's still got to be paid for. So, if you are paying as you go but chosing not to eat there that day ... who then is going to pay your portion of overhead, spoliage, staffing that is still on premises just in case you show up? Your buddy.