Sleep Issues on course [MERGED]

[Armymedic]

Medical schools are moving away from having medical students from doing 24 hr shifts without sleep, because the mistakes they make kill people.

 

[chrisf]

Officer training emphasizes going on forced rests to ensure that one remains a combat effective leader. Officers who fail to take adequate rest do so either because they don't understand how ineffective they have become or because they think they have to be there 100% of the time -- you don't, this is why we have subordinate leaders and 2i/cs.

Obviously what time is available for sleep and how much an individual needs is very much determined by the circumstances and level of fitness. I challenged myself once during a CPX (mental work but no significant physical activities involved) to see how far I could go without any sleep whatsoever. I noticed some deterioration in performance after 48 hours and basically became ineffective after 72 hours. On the other hand I can go several weeks on limited sleep(2-4 hrs per day). One technique I always found helpful was to do for micro sleeps (10-15 mins) whenever the opportunity arose.

I doubt if there is anyone who can do five days without any sleep whatsoever without walking into walls for the last two days. Ten days? No way! No matter how fit you are.

One thing about junior officer training. We challenge their schedules during training for several reasons. The primary ones are to see how they manage their time and resources and to see how they operate and react under stress.

:cheers:

Not sure if you've ever seen them/ but there's been plenty of studies conducted on how folks function with reduced sleep, and there's very clear tables to assist leaders in determining how functional they can expect the average soldier to be, on what amounts of sleep... and as well, how they can expect to maintain those levels of functionality over extended periods with what levels of reduced sleep...

I keep a copy of a leadership aide-de-memoir (The exact title escapes me at the moment) in my FMP at all times, which includes the "sleep tables" (As well as a variety of other risk management tables, and some other useful tidbits). Not sure where else you'd find them published, but it's definitely a useful read, and something to take into consideration when planning...

As the old saying goes, "When in doubt, rack out".

Learning to trust your 2IC/subordinates is as much a lesson in leadership as anything else.

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

My advice is to show up in the best physical shape of your life. Drink water ALL the time. Condition yourself to sleep about 6 hours a day before showing up; the sleep deprivation will not be as bad as someone used to getting 10 hours a day. I completed DP1.1 in 2012 and it was the first year they had the new formula of 4 weeks or so of death by powerpoint/FSQ followed by 40 days of FTX spread in 4 blocks. The first 48 hours were always the worst for me, the hallucinations happened during that period.. I'd totally see stars while marching in the dark and walk right into ditches. The last 8 days were actually easier because I was too exhausted to realize I was tired. At any rate, as long as there is someone in the platoon more NS than you, you'll do great.

 

[Nudibranch]

Medical schools are moving away from having medical students from doing 24 hr shifts without sleep, because the mistakes they make kill people.

Very true, but the point of med school clinical rotations and residency isn't to see how the student functions under sleep deprivation conditions for the purpose of training/experience. The point is to teach medicine (the student must be in a state where they can actually retain this useful information, and follow their resident's/attending's orders on the treatment of real people with real problems), and assess/treat said real patients with their real medical problems.

The point of purposeful sleep deprivation in miliatry training is, well...to allow the trainee to experience such a stressor and see how they function under these conditions in a training environment.

Apples and oranges.

 

[ballz]

I keep a copy of a leadership aide-de-memoir (The exact title escapes me at the moment) in my FMP at all times, which includes the "sleep tables" (As well as a variety of other risk management tables, and some other useful tidbits). Not sure where else you'd find them published, but it's definitely a useful read, and something to take into consideration when planning...

As the old saying goes, "When in doubt, rack out".

Are these the tables you are referring to? I have seen them pop up a few times...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-21-31/appa.htm

 

[daftandbarmy]

Teamwork: work with the other members of your section to fit cat naps in whenever you can.

How long is a catnap?

15 minutes used to feel like a 'straight 8' at times.

 

[dimsum]

Interesting piece; while this is US Army-centric, this applies equally to the CAF.  We don't let soldiers/sailors perform their duties drunk, so why is it ok (or seen as a good thing) to do the same jobs sleep-deprived?  The Air Force is staunchly insistent on crew rest because it has seen first-hand what happens when people try to fly airplanes while fatigued.

The Army has a sleep problem. Here’s how to fix it.

By: Maj. Jeff Jager and Aaron Kennedy, November 20, 2016 (Photo Credit: Senior Airman Cliffton Dolezal/Air Force)
Editor's note: The following is an opinion piece. The writers are not employed by Military Times and the views expressed here do not necessarily represent those of Military Times or its editorial staff.

The use of alcohol is known to degrade mental capacity and impair decision-making. The military prohibits its use during duty hours for common-sense reasons, and does the same with other substances that can degrade readiness. But when it comes to other actions that can do similar damage, or worse, we promote them with reverence, pretending they are strengths.

Studies show sleep deprivation offers effects equal to drinking alcohol, and continued lack of sleep has the potential of being even more deadly. We would never allow a drunken soldier to lead an ambush, so why do we consider it acceptable or even admirable to send one with lack of sleep into life-threatening situations?

The Army’s culture of sleep deprivation begins during basic training, although the Center for Initial Military Training has taken steps recently to incorporate additional sleep into the platform. It continues through the first unit of assignment, where we interrupt sleep with training and other duties until going without rest becomes ingrained in our soldiers.

This is akin to assuming that service members can build up enough alcohol tolerance that they will be safe to drive regardless of how much they have to drink. The logic is flawed.

Unfortunately, the Army has yet to grasp how important sleep is to mission accomplishment, decision-making, general health, physical fitness, and the whole host of other activities. 

As noted in the Army’s November 2015 Health of the Force report, only 15 percent of the active-duty Army meets all national sleep standards, and an incredible 55 percent failed to meet any of the defined targets. The report found 10 percent of soldiers have a diagnosed sleep disorder, almost a third operate on five or less hours of sleep per night, and half have a “clinically significant sleep problem.” 

SURVEY SAYS …

The Army recognizes this problem and is working to address sleep management issues via its Performance Triad program, marking sleep as one of three focus areas alongside physical activity and nutrition. But a survey we conducted shows the program may suffer from a significant lack of awareness.

Between June and July, we received 221 responses from active-duty and reserve-component soldiers, with nearly 41 percent supporting the Triad’s core concepts. But nearly 42 percent had “never heard of it,” and almost 18 percent didn’t agree with it, including more than 20 percent of active-duty soldiers.

Studies show those who managed just five to six hours of sleep a night perform much like a person with a blood alcohol content of 0.08, the level at which one is considered legally drunk in all states. The Army has a robust program and culture against drunk driving to the point where a DUI is considered a career killer, but there are plenty of soldiers who pride themselves on getting limited sleep. This is hugely misguided.

As Pat Wadors, Linkedin’s Chief Human Resource Officer, explains in a 2015 piece at The Huffington Post:

“Trust me, it’s not a badge of honor to brag that you can get by on 4 hours or 5 each night….You intimate that with fewer hours “wasted on sleep” you are more productive. Nope. Can’t buy that. When you brag about that, you are telling me that it’s ok for you to harm your health and not perform your best at work or at home. Is that something to brag about??”

In the Army, an institution where real life-and-death consequences derive from decisions, we argue that sleep deprivation is definitely not something to brag about.

HOW TO FIX IT

Our recommendation to counter force-wide sleep deprivation is two-fold. First, increase awareness efforts. Senior leaders like Sergeant Major of the Army Daniel Dailey frequently highlight important topics and changes to policy, such as rolled-up sleeves, black socks for PT, earbuds in the gym, and a review of the body composition program – the Performance Triad should be part of that mix.

Second, mandate the use of wearable sleep trackers and implement policies to prevent sleep-deprived individuals from making decisions and leading units. We expect this idea will be met with derision by some Soldiers, but we remind skeptics that a soldier found drunk on duty likely faces punishment under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, whereas one functioning without proper sleep is allowed to function at a similar impaired capacity. A simple tweak to existing regulations to add “sleep tracker” into passages that involve pedometers and other fitness tools would highlight that the Army is starting to take sleep seriously. 

Other helpful policy changes, highlighted in the Health of the Force report, include setting conditions to allow soldiers to get proper sleep and integrating “sleep science into mission planning.” Average sleep could even be included in the promotion and evaluation process, which already broadly considers nutrition and physical activity through the Army Physical Fitness Test.

Within the aviation community, mandatory rest has long been the norm, with maximum work and minimum rest periods. Shouldn’t our other military occupational specialties be viewed equally?

---

Maj. Jeff Jager is an Infantry and Foreign Area Officer who is currently serving as the Army Training and Doctrine Command Liaison Officer to Turkey. He graduated from the United States Military Academy in 2000 and has completed master’s degrees at Georgetown University and the Turkish Army War College.

Former Marine Corps Sgt. Aaron Kennedy deployed twice to the Middle East and later served as an intelligence systems instructor at the Marine Air-Ground Task Force Staff Training Program in Quantico, Virginia. The views expressed are those of the authors and not necessarily the positions of the Army, Defense Department or any federal agency.

 

[mariomike]

> Shouldn’t our other military occupational specialties be viewed equally?

May depend on the military occupation specialty?

eg: I believe some CAF firefighters are on duty for 24-hours.

See also,

The Sleep Superthread
https://army.ca/forums/threads/82.50
5 pages.

Sleep during BMQ 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/110727.0
2 pages.

an issue with sleep 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/91490.0.html
2 pages.

etc...

 

[CountDC]

> Shouldn’t our other military occupational specialties be viewed equally?

May depend on the military occupation specialty?

eg: I believe some CAF firefighters are on duty for 24-hours.

Some civilian firefighters too but they get time during that period that they can sleep if not on a call.  Considering the number of calls the CAF gets I imagine they do get the time to sleep.

 

[mariomike]

Some civilian firefighters too but they get time during that period that they can sleep if not on a call. 

Oh, I do know that. 

They used to complain about our tones going off and doors going up and down all night. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Army doesn't have a 'sleep problem'. This is a leadership problem.

The leaders in the Army need to pull their heads out and make sure they pay attention to proper battle procedure. Even when on operations, there should be some part of every unit on 'enforced rest' at all times.

Of course, it helps if those people aren't the sentries (which I noticed was very common with some famous units that I will refrain from mentioning in public... for now )

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Interesting piece; while this is US Army-centric, this applies equally to the CAF.  We don't let soldiers/sailors perform their duties drunk, so why is it ok (or seen as a good thing) to do the same jobs sleep-deprived?  The Air Force is staunchly insistent on crew rest because it has seen first-hand what happens when people try to fly airplanes while fatigued.

I have spent a lot of time working with the Americans.  They don't have a sleep problem - they have a work problem.  It has become normal to be at work before 0500 for the 0530 muster, and considered bad form to leave before the Boss (after 2100).....and that is in Garrison.  They have solved the work / life balance problem by making it impossible to have a life.

The operational tempo is just as bad, if not worse, with a higher penalty for failure.

 

[dimsum]

I have spent a lot of time working with the Americans.  They don't have a sleep problem - they have a work problem.  It has become normal to be at work before 0500 for the 0530 muster, and considered bad form to leave before the Boss (after 2100).....and that is in Garrison.  They have solved the work / life balance problem by making it impossible to have a life.

Tangent, but that was my cousin's experience working in HK at a large multinational firm as an accountant.  She noped out of there to LA and a much smaller company, and she's much happier for it.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I have spent a lot of time working with the Americans.  They don't have a sleep problem - they have a work problem.  It has become normal to be at work before 0500 for the 0530 muster, and considered bad form to leave before the Boss (after 2100).....and that is in Garrison.  They have solved the work / life balance problem by making it impossible to have a life.

The operational tempo is just as bad, if not worse, with a higher penalty for failure.

One of my NCOs was on exchange with the 82nd Airborne and returned with amazing stories of troops being on parade at 0500 for inspection followed at 15 minute intervals by OCs reporting parade strengths to COs reporting to Bde Comds reporting to the Div Comd, in person. Then they all went for a (slow) 3 mile run singing airborne songs, with flags at the front, then fell out for breakfast before starting work. Every. Single. Day.

It all sounded like some kind of gigantic Army kindergarten class. Without the snacks.

 

[Penguin1994]

Are there ever any days at BMQ that you are permitted to sleep at a time other than 11pm-5am? What I mean by that is are you ever given the chance to sleep till 7am or will wake up always be at 5am with no exception from the day you arrive to the day you leave?

As a test I am trying to wake up at 5am and fall asleep at 11pm everyday for the next 3 months. I am only a few days in and already I am having a hard time with this routine. I can function on little sleep so long as am I able to make up for it later on but from what I've read it seems as though you never get the chance to catch up on sleep while at BMQ.

For anyone who has done BMQ what was your experience regarding sleep?

 

[mariomike]

For anyone who has done BMQ what was your experience regarding sleep?

See also,

The Sleep Superthread
https://army.ca/forums/threads/82.50
5 pages.

Sleep during BMQ 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/110727.0
2 pages.

an issue with sleep 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/91490.0.html
2 pages.

etc...

 

[George Wallace]

Are there ever any days at BMQ that you are permitted to sleep at a time other than 11pm-5am? What I mean by that is are you ever given the chance to sleep till 7am or will wake up always be at 5am with no exception from the day you arrive to the day you leave?

As a test I am trying to wake up at 5am and fall asleep at 11pm everyday for the next 3 months. I am only a few days in and already I am having a hard time with this routine. I can function on little sleep so long as am I able to make up for it later on but from what I've read it seems as though you never get the chance to catch up on sleep while at BMQ.

For anyone who has done BMQ what was your experience regarding sleep?

A good question and one that has been asked and answered a couple of times over the course of this site's existence.

The most honest and accurate answer to your question is: "YES, after you have graduated your BMQ." 

While on course, your timings will be dictated by the Course Schedule.  All courses are different, so all schedules will vary as well.

The New Mods will, as you may have noticed, come along soon and MERGE your question with the appropriate thread where you can read all the previous answers and get a better feel for how the military operates.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Are there ever any days at BMQ that you are permitted to sleep at a time other than 11pm-5am? What I mean by that is are you ever given the chance to sleep till 7am or will wake up always be at 5am with no exception from the day you arrive to the day you leave?

As a test I am trying to wake up at 5am and fall asleep at 11pm everyday for the next 3 months. I am only a few days in and already I am having a hard time with this routine. I can function on little sleep so long as am I able to make up for it later on but from what I've read it seems as though you never get the chance to catch up on sleep while at BMQ.

For anyone who has done BMQ what was your experience regarding sleep?

Yes. Any time you find yourself in a dark theatre watching a video/ movie about venereal disease, or something equally riveting.  ;D

 

[Pusser]

Yes. Any time you find yourself in a dark theatre watching a video/ movie about venereal disease, or something equally riveting.  ;D

Actually that Disney produced film on VD is actually quite entertaining!

 

[Jarnhamar]

Are there ever any days at BMQ that you are permitted to sleep at a time other than 11pm-5am? What I mean by that is are you ever given the chance to sleep till 7am or will wake up always be at 5am with no exception from the day you arrive to the day you leave?

As a test I am trying to wake up at 5am and fall asleep at 11pm everyday for the next 3 months. I am only a few days in and already I am having a hard time with this routine. I can function on little sleep so long as am I able to make up for it later on but from what I've read it seems as though you never get the chance to catch up on sleep while at BMQ.

For anyone who has done BMQ what was your experience regarding sleep?

It can take a week or two to get used to it.
When you wake up at 5 am quickly shave, put running gear on and go for a 5 km run. Then work your way up to doing 40 push ups and 40 sit ups.