Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coronavirus thread]

[CBH99]

I notice you said "Parade night" I assume that means you are a Reservist and the reason I say that is because you didn't necessarily need to show up that night anyway.  My understanding is that as long as you Parade at least once a month they can't do much.

Technically, from an admin perspective, you are right stellar.

However, it was expected that most members parade every night, or at least 3 weeks, each month.  If you were only there one night a month, consistently, you weren't held in particularly high regard by the CoC when it came to courses, deployments, or unique opportunities that might pop up.

If you attended consistently and were a decent troop, and you didn't come in for a parade night, nobody cared.  Your professional reputation was solid.  If you trained consistently, were a useful member of the unit, and conducted yourself professionally -- one might just say "Oh, hey, Cpl. XX wasn't in tonight."  Nobody cared.

That being said, if you weren't parading regularly, usually the CoC would talk with you about your goals, career aspirations, etc etc.  (A lot of our CoC was in emergency services, and so were quite a few of our members, so there was a decent understanding between the two.) 

A minimum of one night a month, while still meeting the minimum criteria, you weren't considered a useful member of the unit and weren't particularly valued.  :2c:

 

[stellarpanther]

Technically, from an admin perspective, you are right stellar.

However, it was expected that most members parade every night, or at least 3 weeks, each month.  If you were only there one night a month, consistently, you weren't held in particularly high regard by the CoC when it came to courses, deployments, or unique opportunities that might pop up.

If you attended consistently and were a decent troop, and you didn't come in for a parade night, nobody cared.  Your professional reputation was solid.  If you trained consistently, were a useful member of the unit, and conducted yourself professionally -- one might just say "Oh, hey, Cpl. XX wasn't in tonight."  Nobody cared.

That being said, if you weren't parading regularly, usually the CoC would talk with you about your goals, career aspirations, etc etc.  (A lot of our CoC was in emergency services, and so were quite a few of our members, so there was a decent understanding between the two.) 

A minimum of one night a month, while still meeting the minimum criteria, you weren't considered a useful member of the unit and weren't particularly valued.  :2c:

That makes sense and it's why I push my son to go even when he prefers to stay home and play video games some nights.  3 hours a week isn't much to ask especially when it's his only job.

 

[BDTyre]

Correct, yes - one night a month. But as others pointed out, that is the bare minimum. Depending on who our CO is at the time, the unit has been told that full attendance is expected. We even had a few years were we would need to submit memos or fill out leave requests if we weren't going to be on exercise.

That said, I have the "misfortune" of being dependable and capable at my job, as well has trying to take as many class A days as possible so the expectation was that I would be working every Wednesday night (to the point where the CQ just stopped asking if I'd be handling company weapons draw and just expected me to be there).

 

[stellarpanther]

Correct, yes - one night a month. But as others pointed out, that is the bare minimum. Depending on who our CO is at the time, the unit has been told that full attendance is expected. We even had a few years were we would need to submit memos or fill out leave requests if we weren't going to be on exercise.

How can they make you submit a leave pass, what type of leave would that be?  As I said earlier, I'm all for parading as much as you can especially if you have the time available and I tell my son that as well.  But that said, I'm curious from a regulation perspective.  I don't understand how they can do much if you are meeting the minimum requirements.  That would be like putting a person on remedial measures for PT if you just met the minimum requirements on a force test.  Just met the times for example.  I can also see there being consequences if a person never shows up for any ex, but again if you are meeting the minimum I don't see how they can do much.

 

[brihard]

How can they make you submit a leave pass, what type of leave would that be?  As I said earlier, I'm all for parading as much as you can especially if you have the time available and I tell my son that as well.  But that said, I'm curious from a regulation perspective.  I don't understand how they can do much if you are meeting the minimum requirements.  That would be like putting a person on remedial measures for PT if you just met the minimum requirements on a force test.  Just met the times for example.  I can also see there being consequences if a person never shows up for any ex, but again if you are meeting the minimum I don't see how they can do much.

A CO can lawfully order soldiers to parade. Failure to attend sufficiently to be useful can be a performance unit, and handle it through remedial measures. My old unit did it. The ‘once a month’ applies to Non-Effective Strength designation. It does not in and of itself constrain the ability of a commanding officer to command their unit and to manage the performance of the members of their command. If you are ‘just meeting the minimum’, you generally are not worth keeping on strength unless it’s a temporary situation. This is a big factor in why I elected to release before I became a burden on my regiment.

 

[stellarpanther]

A CO can lawfully order soldiers to parade. Failure to attend sufficiently to be useful can be a performance unit, and handle it through remedial measures. My old unit did it. The ‘once a month’ applies to Non-Effective Strength designation. It does not in and of itself constrain the ability of a commanding officer to command their unit and to manage the performance of the members of their command. If you are ‘just meeting the minimum’, you generally are not worth keeping on strength unless it’s a temporary situation. This is a big factor in why I elected to release before I became a burden on my regiment.

Is there a written policy that states a mbr must parade x amount of says per month or go on x amount of exercises per month or does every unit decide on their own.  One of my friends worked RSS at a unit in southern Ontario a few years ago and he used to say it's hard to plan things because you never knew how many people would really show up for an Ex until the Friday night because people who committed to going the night before often wouldn't show up.
 

 

[brihard]

Is there a written policy that states a mbr must parade x amount of says per month or go on x amount of exercises per month or does every unit decide on their own.  One of my friends worked RSS at a unit in southern Ontario a few years ago and he used to say it's hard to plan things because you never knew how many people would really show up for an Ex until the Friday night because people who committed to going the night before often wouldn't show up.

My CO established such a policy for the unit. There was flexibility where needed. The general expectation was 3/4 of parade nights, And every weekend exercise. Exceptions has the expectation of prior notice except for emergencies. Members who had exceptional circumstances (eg shift workers) were accommodated. Experienced and proven members got a bit more flexibility as long as comms were good.

The underlying philosophy was that at McDonalds or Home Depot, if you don’t show up for work, they fire you. The military should reasonably expect at least a Home Depot degree of dedication.

 

[stellarpanther]

My CO established such a policy for the unit. There was flexibility where needed. The general expectation was 3/4 of parade nights, And every weekend exercise. Exceptions has the expectation of prior notice except for emergencies. Members who had exceptional circumstances (eg shift workers) were accommodated. Experienced and proven members got a bit more flexibility as long as comms were good.

The underlying philosophy was that at McDonalds or Home Depot, if you don’t show up for work, they fire you. The military should reasonably expect at least a Home Depot degree of dedication.

Interesting, I assumed there would be a national policy and that each CO couldn't make there own rules.

 

[OldSolduer]

Interesting, I assumed there would be a national policy and that each CO couldn't make there own rules.

Oh my heavens you are a neophyte- kidding.

There’s a lot of wiggle room for a CO.

The words “A Commanding Officer may...” gives them that room.

 

[stellarpanther]

Oh my heavens you are a neophyte- kidding.

There’s a lot of wiggle room for a CO.

The words “A Commanding Officer may...” gives them that room.

I didn't think it was like that in the Reserves, I understand that a CO has a lot of authority but didn't think they had that much authority over someone on Class A.

 

[brihard]

Interesting, I assumed there would be a national policy and that each CO couldn't make there own rules.

Check S.294(1) of the NDA.

 

[stellarpanther]

Check S.294(1) of the NDA.

294 (1) Every officer or non-commissioned member of the reserve force who without lawful excuse neglects or refuses to attend any parade or training at the place and hour appointed therefor is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction for each offence, if an officer, to a fine not exceeding fifty dollars and, if a non-commissioned member, to a fine not exceeding twenty-five dollars.

Marginal note:Each absence an offence

(2) Absence from any parade or training referred to in subsection (1) is, in respect of each day on which the absence occurs, a separate offence.

 

[stellarpanther]

I honestly didn't know that.  I think a lot of people wrongly believe as I did that the worse they can do is release the mbr. 

 

[Blackadder1916]

I honestly didn't know that.  I think a lot of people wrongly believe as I did that the worse they can do is release the mbr. 

Before you get farther into speculation about using S. 294, I'd suggest that you search for some of the comments made about it on these means by FJAG.

Okay, I'll make it a bit easier for you.  https://army.ca/forums/threads/24381/post-1599807.html#msg1599807  and https://army.ca/forums/threads/121376/post-1405891.html#msg1405891  are starting points.

There are already a few threads about NES and use of the CSD to encourage reservist attendance or lack thereof.

While, as related by FJAG, charging a reservist under 294 (1) is an empty threat, there are other administrative (and leadership) mechanisms for encouraging pers to parade, or to see them out the door if they don't get the hint.  All it takes is will on the part of a CO.

 

[brihard]

I should have expounded on that- it’s not my intent to suggest we’re gonna charge reservists who don’t show up to parade. That would be silly. What it communicates to me is there there is an intent to empower COs to make those decisions regarding when training will be and when their people will be expected to attend. The National Defense Act and subordinate regulations contain all the tools necessary for a CO to set and manage performance expectations.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

I should have expounded on that- it’s not my intent to suggest we’re gonna charge reservists who don’t show up to parade. That would be silly. What it communicates to me is there there is an intent to empower COs to make those decisions regarding when training will be and when their people will be expected to attend. The National Defense Act and subordinate regulations contain all the tools necessary for a CO to set and manage performance expectations.

With that post, and in reading several discussions/comments over the years here about parading expectations, should there then be some sort of formal amendment (or at least re-visiting of) the minimum standard attendance which is told to new members right when they’re still in the Recruiting office? I continually find this practice confounding even though it doesn’t affect me personally.

If a member is super gung-ho, is involved in everything, parades multiple times a month, and has the flexibility, that’s awesome—that’s great, and they’ll often be recognized in any number of ways. But if a member is content remaining a Pte or Cpl, enjoys low-pressure, doesn’t have the familial and/or civilian employment flexibility needed to accommodate summer taskings, and increased involvement in the unit—is happy with pdeing 1-2x a month, they won’t be looked upon as just as valuable a member as the other guy/gal. So why does CAF keep using the minimum expectation as a selling point (and it’s commonly cited in other types of interactions) when the bare minimum is, in fact, not acceptable? Why not raise the minimum expectation to avoid issues later on for the member and the unit?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Just wondering....

This thread stared on a tangent from another thread.

Is it now drifting from the original tangent?

I'd better break out my sextant....

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Just wondering....

This thread stared on a tangent from another thread.

Is it now drifting from the original tangent?

I'd better break out my sextant....

‘Like to keep you in suspense... ;D

 

[Jarnhamar]

I should have expounded on that- it’s not my intent to suggest we’re gonna charge reservists who don’t show up to parade. That would be silly. What it communicates to me is there there is an intent to empower COs to make those decisions regarding when training will be and when their people will be expected to attend. The National Defense Act and subordinate regulations contain all the tools necessary for a CO to set and manage performance expectations.

Just my opinion.
Larger units have the benefit of being able to punt dead weight. Smaller units care so much about "numbers on paper" that they excuse poor attendence that would get these guys fired in any civilian job.

That creates a atmosphere where these "soldiers" parents need to push and prod them to get off their Xbox and go to work.
Because playing video games instead of working doesn't come with any consequence.

Come summer tasking time, units forgive and forget bad attendence (and behavior) and shotgun everyone out to summer tasks and training.

Reserves are their own worst enemy in this regard.

 

[stellarpanther]

So thinking about this more, the minimum requirement to parade isn't once a month as is told to people because while they can't release you as NES, if I understand this right, they find a different reason based on the CO of a particular unit creating his own policy.  That doesn't sound right to me.  I guess as an HRA, I like to be able read policy in black and white.
Before someone starts jumping on me go back and read my other comments that said I think people should parade more than just once a month.  Just be up front about it with the troops.  Recruiting needs to start being honest with people and not just worried about filling numbers and create a problem down the road for someone else.