Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coronavirus thread]

[AKa]

My pet theory is that they should make it harder for the CoC to say no to members who want to deploy.  I had three postings in my last stint in the Reg Force and despite begging for another deployment, I was consistently denied.  After they yanked the rug out from under me a couple times, I gave up and went back to the Reserves where I can control my career and at least avoid the soul-sucking jobs.

I didn't keep the uniform to sit at a desk at NDHQ.  I kept it to sit behind a computer in a nasty environment where I can make a difference. But I've gotten tired of fighting and pleading so I don't have my hand up anymore.

Cheers,

AK

 

[Jarnhamar]

Lets be careful here, you've described 2 polar opposite people and lumped them into the same group. Someone trying to get off a TCat to get a deployment but not to go to Wainwright are taking advantaged of the medical system for personal gain.

No disagreement here. Just an example of people wanting to deploy.

 

[stellarpanther]

One of the big reasons guys (and girls and other) don't want to go is they just got back from their third deployment in four years because some cubicle dweller with a photocopier strapped to his *** and a five doughnut a day habit refuses to step up and take his bite of the crap sammich, and is plain burned out.

If only you knew what you were talking about.  I've sat hear reading comments about people not stepping up for tours.  With the exception of the past few years, I was asking for a short tour at least every few months or even a short tasking somewhere. I wasn't going to volunteer for Afghanistan but would have went if ordered with no issue.  I'm not volunteering to go to war, I have been clear about that. I have several memos on my Pers File showing that.  The fact is that a lot of people at the Junior rank level don't get taken from Ottawa in the HRA/FSA trade because they say they are too short staffed.  Usually it was just sorry we don't have enough other people to send you.  One time it was, sure, I'll submit your name but she really didn't. The last time I asked, they got pissed off and I called into the CWO's office and given crap for trying to go somewhere else and not thinking of the needs of the unit.  That time I was told "if you want to go on tour, get your CM to post you to an operational base".  My CWO also wasn't an HRA, he was a combat arms trade.  Stop the BS of saying it's the mbr's fault for not stepping up because those who say that don't have a clue as to what the hell they are talking about.  Many CoC's in Ottawa won't willingly give up their people and go short staffed.  They do when they have to.

 

[daftandbarmy]

If only you knew what you were talking about.  I've sat hear reading comments about people not stepping up for tours.  With the exception of the past few years, I was asking for a short tour at least every few months or even a short tasking somewhere. I wasn't going to volunteer for Afghanistan but would have went if ordered with no issue.  I'm not volunteering to go to war, I have been clear about that. I have several memos on my Pers File showing that.  The fact is that a lot of people at the Junior rank level don't get taken from Ottawa in the HRA/FSA trade because they say they are too short staffed.  Usually it was just sorry we don't have enough other people to send you.  One time it was, sure, I'll submit your name but she really didn't. The last time I asked, they got pissed off and I called into the CWO's office and given crap for trying to go somewhere else and not thinking of the needs of the unit.  That time I was told "if you want to go on tour, get your CM to post you to an operational base".  My CWO also wasn't an HRA, he was a combat arms trade.  Stop the BS of saying it's the mbr's fault for not stepping up because those who say that don't have a clue as to what the hell they are talking about.  Many CoC's in Ottawa won't willingly give up their people and go short staffed.  They do when they have to.

That was the same for most Class B people in the CBG HQs who weren't 'allowed' to go. Regardless, I know a few who risked their longer term employment prospects 'on the tit' by just saying 'Eff it, I'm off', and headed to the sandbox anyways.

My hat's also off to a couple of them who went Class A, just so they could deploy.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

My pet theory is that they should make it harder for the CoC to say no to members who want to deploy.  I had three postings in my last stint in the Reg Force and despite begging for another deployment, I was consistently denied.  After they yanked the rug out from under me a couple times, I gave up and went back to the Reserves where I can control my career and at least avoid the soul-sucking jobs.

I didn't keep the uniform to sit at a desk at NDHQ.  I kept it to sit behind a computer in a nasty environment where I can make a difference. But I've gotten tired of fighting and pleading so I don't have my hand up anymore.

Cheers,

AK

This is a very real problem.  It's one of the reasons I left the Army.  My first tour of Battalion, I watched three or four different rotations go to Afghanistan for Op ATTENTION that was filled with Reservists.

Meanwhile us Regulars deployed year after year to MAPLE RESOLVE.  I often wondered why we are being paid for full time service when they aren't actually deploying us.

Most of the Reservists I did my training with deployed on Op ATTENTION while none of us Regulars did.  I don't have a problem with Reservists deploying and think it's an incredibly noble thing but I can't see the sense in deploying them when you've got thousands of regular soldiers sitting around on rucksacks.

 

[Kat Stevens]

If only you knew what you were talking about.  I've sat hear reading comments about people not stepping up for tours.  With the exception of the past few years, I was asking for a short tour at least every few months or even a short tasking somewhere. I wasn't going to volunteer for Afghanistan but would have went if ordered with no issue.  I'm not volunteering to go to war, I have been clear about that. I have several memos on my Pers File showing that.  The fact is that a lot of people at the Junior rank level don't get taken from Ottawa in the HRA/FSA trade because they say they are too short staffed.  Usually it was just sorry we don't have enough other people to send you.  One time it was, sure, I'll submit your name but she really didn't. The last time I asked, they got pissed off and I called into the CWO's office and given crap for trying to go somewhere else and not thinking of the needs of the unit.  That time I was told "if you want to go on tour, get your CM to post you to an operational base".  My CWO also wasn't an HRA, he was a combat arms trade.  Stop the BS of saying it's the mbr's fault for not stepping up because those who say that don't have a clue as to what the hell they are talking about.  Many CoC's in Ottawa won't willingly give up their people and go short staffed.  They do when they have to.

You're absolutely correct how could I, a guy that spent 23 years in combat arms units watching this shit happen, know about it? It's not like I have a high up friend who stayed in a holiday inn express or anything. Misleading, was I? So field troops aren't burning out after back to back to back tours? Maybe go talk to someone who doesn't work in air conditioned splendour every day.

 

[dapaterson]

I don't have a problem with Reservists deploying and think it's an incredibly noble thing but I can't see the sense in deploying them when you've got thousands of regular soldiers sitting around on rucksacks.

Now apply this to DomOps, and you'll confront another piece of foundational Army cognitive dissonance: Thousands of Regular soldiers sitting around on rucksacks, but we bring in part-timers to do the work.


Perhaps COVID-19 will drive some much needed force structure considerations - just how many folks paid full-time to sit around on rucksacks do we truly need, day-to-day?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Now apply this to DomOps, and you'll confront another piece of foundational Army cognitive dissonance: Thousands of Regular soldiers sitting around on rucksacks, but we bring in part-timers to do the work.


Perhaps COVID-19 will drive some much needed force structure considerations - just how many folks paid full-time to sit around on rucksacks do we truly need, day-to-day?

You've just reminded me of the famous 'Snowstorm of '96' in Victoria, where hundreds of reservists deployed to dig out and rescue the regular Navy personnel at CFB Esquimalt who bravely watched my part-time teenaged riflemen shovel snow off of, and save, the collapsing Canex roof from their windows at base accommodation.

We did have two regular force personnel turn up at the armoury, they were home on Christmas leave and came down to help out, so I guess you could say that we weren't a 100% reserve force manned DOMOP.

 

[MJP]

Now apply this to DomOps, and you'll confront another piece of foundational Army cognitive dissonance: Thousands of Regular soldiers sitting around on rucksacks, but we bring in part-timers to do the work.


Perhaps COVID-19 will drive some much needed force structure considerations - just how many folks paid full-time to sit around on rucksacks do we truly need, day-to-day?

We must be on different DOMOPs, out west it is always the Reg F that responds first and then a few weeks later some PRes trickle in. Sometimes they are able to take over, most times they augment some AO. That has been my experience for the last 20ish years or so.

I will say that given the CA support structure for the PRes is messed up even when we have a pure PRes DOMOPs response their support is 90% Reg F.

 

[stellarpanther]

You’re absolutely correct how could I, a guy she spent 23 years in combat arms units watching this crap happen, know about it? It’s not like I have a high up friend who stayed in a holiday inn express or anything. Misleading, was I? So field troops aren’t burning out after back to back to back tours? Maybe go talk to someone who doesn’t work in air conditioned splendour every day.

Then I guess it's different where you were because in Ottawa and I'm sure in many other locations.  You don't just go tell your CoC to send you to where ever you want to go to.  You can ask, you might get shot down right of the bat or they will tell you to submit a memo and then shoot you down.  I'm not saying it's not that way it other trades but it's not that way in the HRA/FSA trades in the NCR or a few other places.  You wait for them to ask you if you are interested in something and that offer usually doesn't come because they try to take from the operational bases first.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Now apply this to DomOps, and you'll confront another piece of foundational Army cognitive dissonance: Thousands of Regular soldiers sitting around on rucksacks, but we bring in part-timers to do the work.


Perhaps COVID-19 will drive some much needed force structure considerations - just how many folks paid full-time to sit around on rucksacks do we truly need, day-to-day?

I completely agree, I don't think we need nearly as large of a standing Army as we have.

I was in a LIB and I always thought you could get rid of that entire organization (which didn't and still doesn't have a  valid FE construct) and see zero impact to anything.

I've looked at the Danes and Norwegians do things and think pieces of their model would work far better for us.

In the case of the Norwegians, Telemark Bn and Panzer Bn do basically all their overseas deployments and are manned by full time personnel.  They also have way better kit than us but that's what you get when you have units equipped to their actual scale, unlike us where we have make believe Battalions and Brigades.

 

[PuckChaser]

Perhaps COVID-19 will drive some much needed force structure considerations - just how many folks paid full-time to sit around on rucksacks do we truly need, day-to-day?

How many part time soldiers do we need who are only being used for sandbagging, digging fire breaks or cleaning long term care homes? I'd buy massive use of the PRes 10 years ago when we had almost 3,000 troops deployed just in SE Asia, but there was no need to use them for LASER unless they had specific skills.

 

[stellarpanther]

I'd be curious to see how many of the Reservists that were put on Class C were actually used.  I don't mean sent to Borden waiting for something happen.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I don't get the 'I don't want to deploy' attitude; I didn't join because I really enjoy sitting at a desk fighting bureaucracy and pushing the red tape rock up the hill. Pretty much past the deploying with ships portion of my career, but would happily do one of the purple jobs on a deployment if available. Haven't seen anyone looking for those since Afghanistan closed down shop though, so seems weird to be rewarded/punished for a choice on deployment when the odds of it actually happening right now are effectively zero.  :dunno:

Obviously varies a lot between the whole CAF, but think it's generally impossible to get any kind of one size fits all solution for CM in one element, let alone across all three.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I don't get the 'I don't want to deploy' attitude; I didn't join because I really enjoy sitting at a desk fighting bureaucracy and pushing the red tape rock up the hill. Pretty much past the deploying with ships portion of my career, but would happily do one of the purple jobs on a deployment if available. Haven't seen anyone looking for those since Afghanistan closed down shop though, so seems weird to be rewarded/punished for a choice on deployment when the odds of it actually happening right now are effectively zero.  :dunno:

Obviously varies a lot between the whole CAF, but think it's generally impossible to get any kind of one size fits all solution for CM in one element, let alone across all three.

If I could try to defend someone who does not want to deploy, much as that attitude mystifies me, in our recruiting we tend to 'string people along' and emphasize money, career, family, friends over duty, danger, deployments etc.

I recall an interesting conversation with one of my in laws, a really, really smart doctor (who I would also peg as a bit of a 'save the worlder').

He was talking about the time he almost joined the CAF 'so they would pay for my education'. He actually went so far as to go to the Recruiting Office where they emphasized this benefit of joining. He thought that, although he didn't join, it might be a good option for his kids.

My comment was something along the lines of 'if you're not willing to give, or take, a life for your country on foreign soil, then forget it buddy.'

He was shocked, and said they hadn't mentioned anything about that.... of course  :

 

[stellarpanther]

If I could try to defend someone who does not want to deploy, much as that attitude mystifies me, in our recruiting we tend to 'string people along' and emphasize money, career, family, friends over duty, danger, deployments etc.

I recall an interesting conversation with one of my in laws, a really, really smart doctor (who I would also peg as a bit of a 'save the worlder').

He was talking about the time he almost joined the CAF 'so they would pay for my education'. He actually went so far as to go to the Recruiting Office where they emphasized this benefit of joining. He thought that, although he didn't join, it might be a good option for his kids.

My comment was something along the lines of 'if you're not willing to give, or take, a life for your country on foreign soil, then forget it buddy.'

He was shocked, and said they hadn't mentioned anything about that.... of course  :

I tend to be off on my dates but I think it was about 10 years or so ago that they had a recruiting bonus for doctors of $250,000, dentists I think was $100,000 and for some reason I think lawyers were also on the list for $100,000.  I think they had to stay for 5 years.  Several took the CAF up on it and apparently several then quit as soon as their TOS expired.

 

[stellarpanther]

It was mentioned that recruiting likes to glorify things and talk about money, friends, family etc.  I once worked with a guy who was told that he needed to stay and work overtime as something last minute needed to be done by morning for the DCO.  He told his supervisor he couldn't because his son's baseball team was playing for the championship that night and his son was supposed be the pitcher.  His glove was also in his car.  The boss basically said sorry you need to stay.  The mbr apologized back and said do what you need to do and left.  The next day he was in with his supervisor, RSM and CO.  The supervisor apparently thought this person should be charged.  The RSM and CO said something to the effect that the CAF likes to say family first and thought it was a perfect example and time to exercise that.  Everyone left that office and that was the end of it.  This RSM was a big believer in family. 
I'm curious as to what people think family first means to people here because it is something that is said and it does help get people in the door but pisses some off when they find out it's not really something everyone believes in.

 

[BDTyre]

I don't know, my CoC over the last few years has been pretty understanding as to why I don't always go on ex, or have to miss a night. I've even been allowed to leave early on the odd parade night during my wife's last pregnancy so I don't have any trouble believing that family can sometimes first (of course I'm sure we all get the Snr NCO that says "sure family first, the military is your family.").

That said, I've also been put in the position where, at times, I was the only one able to do my job and did have to make some (albeit small) sacrifices.

And there was that one time we kept getting our leave changed around and the question of how we were to get flights home came up and my wife, getting very tired and frustrated at having to change plans every other day, made a complaint that ended up with our Ops O and then with Brigade, LFWA and ultimately Ottawa. Shortly after that we were told our flights would be covered and our immediate chain of command had to put in extra hours scheduling leave.

So family can come first...

 

[daftandbarmy]

I don't know, my CoC over the last few years has been pretty understanding as to why I don't always go on ex, or have to miss a night. I've even been allowed to leave early on the odd parade night during my wife's last pregnancy so I don't have any trouble believing that family can sometimes first (of course I'm sure we all get the Snr NCO that says "sure family first, the military is your family.").

That said, I've also been put in the position where, at times, I was the only one able to do my job and did have to make some (albeit small) sacrifices.

And there was that one time we kept getting our leave changed around and the question of how we were to get flights home came up and my wife, getting very tired and frustrated at having to change plans every other day, made a complaint that ended up with our Ops O and then with Brigade, LFWA and ultimately Ottawa. Shortly after that we were told our flights would be covered and our immediate chain of command had to put in extra hours scheduling leave.

So family can come first...

I wish your wife would complain on behalf of some of my troops

 

[stellarpanther]

I don't know, my CoC over the last few years has been pretty understanding as to why I don't always go on ex, or have to miss a night. I've even been allowed to leave early on the odd parade night during my wife's last pregnancy so I don't have any trouble believing that family can sometimes first (of course I'm sure we all get the Snr NCO that says "sure family first, the military is your family.").

That said, I've also been put in the position where, at times, I was the only one able to do my job and did have to make some (albeit small) sacrifices.

And there was that one time we kept getting our leave changed around and the question of how we were to get flights home came up and my wife, getting very tired and frustrated at having to change plans every other day, made a complaint that ended up with our Ops O and then with Brigade, LFWA and ultimately Ottawa. Shortly after that we were told our flights would be covered and our immediate chain of command had to put in extra hours scheduling leave.

So family can come first...

I notice you said "Parade night" I assume that means you are a Reservist and the reason I say that is because you didn't necessarily need to show up that night anyway.  My understanding is that as long as you Parade at least once a month they can't do much.