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Special Forces pulls new pistols from service after soldier injured in misfire

Weinie

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TB wouldn't get to pick the pistol. CANSOF would write the Statement of Requirement and bidders would put their bids in. With JTF2 being around for close to 30 years, I think they've figured out how to get what they want based by writing a SOR a certain way to get through the red tape. At the end of the day, even replacing every pistol in CANSOF is probably under $5M CAD. That's a 10th of the CA's pistol replacement program cost and wouldn't get the same scrutiny.

Some smarter folks than me might know if it's below the threshold between Major and Minor Capital projects, which has a big impact on processes.
Sometimes they buy off the shelf.
 

PuckChaser

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I don't think you can LPO $5M worth of weapons systems...
 

Colin Parkinson

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JTF2 or even CANSOF are full of people that take shooting seriously and likley aware of the track record of the pistol and are also very likley to be competent pistol users. That being said a high energy drill like detaining a suspect and trying to holster the pistol is a high risk endeavour, because you can't slow down enough or focus enough to ensure the path between the pistol and the holster is clear. One LEO suffered a bad ND when the elastic cord on her jacket snagged the trigger of her pistol.
As far as I can tell they have not completely determine the cause. You can have operator error even with a pistol with a known fault.
 

Good2Golf

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For those interested in seeing the Sig-provided update to the chassis and fire control group on the P320. Info only on the modifications - no assumptions to what variant JTF 2 has.

Sig Sauer P320: Before and After Voluntary Upgrade

Some interesting aspects to the operation of the P320’s fire control group, especially how far out of battery the slide can come yet with the trigger still being able to fire, even after the modifications.
 

Haggis

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JTF2 or even CANSOF are full of people that take shooting seriously and likely aware of the track record of the pistol and are also very likely to be competent pistol users.

Apparently due to the wrong holster, per the manufacturer.

SIG SAUER press release
The top statement seems to fly contrary to the bottom. You would think, given the experience level at DHTC, that they would've bought new holsters that go with their pistols. My Level II Safariland, which is a perfect fit for my 320, cost $75.
 

Jarnhamar

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The top statement seems to fly contrary to the bottom. You would think, given the experience level at DHTC, that they would've bought new holsters that go with their pistols. My Level II Safariland, which is a perfect fit for my 320, cost $75.
It does seem strange to start heating and warping and drilling old holsters when they can pick up new ones.
 

Colin Parkinson

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The top statement seems to fly contrary to the bottom. You would think, given the experience level at DHTC, that they would've bought new holsters that go with their pistols. My Level II Safariland, which is a perfect fit for my 320, cost $75.
or maybe a scathing indictment of our procurement and supply system, incapable of ordering the correct holsters or to do so in time?
 

CBH99

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There was some discussion in the "Replacing the Browning Hi-Power" thread that perhaps the P320 would be picked as the replacement.

Given this incident, issues in US service, similar issues over the years, and a class action suit which was settled last year - I'm thinking maybe this model might be eliminated from consideration.
When I first made this comment, I was looking at this situation more from a procurement standpoint than a safety standpoint.

All I was saying was that if the government is considering, lets' say 5 pistols - and this one has a history or misfires or mishaps, and the company offering that model is engaged in legal matters as a result of issues from that model - it would be a fairly simple one to cross of the list, from a Public Works / Procurement standpoint.

If a senior procurement official in Public Works, who isn't up to date on modern firearms, is looking to eliminate various options in the course of choosing which model is selected - I'm just thinking this one may be one of the first ones they choose. (Not saying it is the right choice or not - again, looking at it from a procurement perspective.)


I don't know anything remotely resembling competent knowledge on pistol mechanics compared to a lot of the folks here.
 

Colin Parkinson

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The nice thing about the 320/M17 design is that it's built around a metal chassis, so the size of the lower grip can be changed and if necessary the chassis can be replaced with a new/modified one. Some polymer pistols have the metal chassis moulded into the frame so they remain one unit. Having a Chassis separate might make maintaining pistols for the long run easier, as you can slowly build a new pistol by replacing the parts bit by bit. However it's also the chassis that contains the serial number. the other nice thing about the M17 is that it's already set up to take an optic, which is likley to become the standard for pistols in the future.
784A64CD-5F95-4F8F-B0A5-2E2E7A5112F2.jpeg
https://www.google.com/search?q=sig...ECAQQAw&biw=1920&bih=937#imgrc=KMB9m03v12LO1M
 

Haggis

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All I was saying was that if the government is considering, lets' say 5 pistols - and this one has a history or misfires or mishaps, and the company offering that model is engaged in legal matters as a result of issues from that model - it would be a fairly simple one to cross of the list, from a Public Works / Procurement standpoint.

If a senior procurement official in Public Works, who isn't up to date on modern firearms, is looking to eliminate various options in the course of choosing which model is selected - I'm just thinking this one may be one of the first ones they choose. (Not saying it is the right choice or not - again, looking at it from a procurement perspective.)

Glock is embroiled in a class action lawsuit related to safety concerns as is Beretta and Walther. And the reputation of Smith and Wesson has taken a hit in Canada due to that class action lawsuit over the use of a S&W pistol in the Danforth shooting. (Imagine the headlines: "Government to Adopt Military Pistol Made by Danforth Gun Manufacturer"). If ongoing litigation is a deciding factor in our new pistol, the list is of viable candidates getting shorter by the day.

A point to remember when considering the new CAF service pistol is that the primary firearm is still the service RIFLE. The majority of pistol users in the CAF are infrequent, casual users and the pistol training afforded to them (IBTS, PWT1/APWT) is just enough (in most cases) to keep them safe and scare the enemy away.

The M17/M18 has been taken into service by the largest NATO forces over all other competitors including the much vaunted Glocks, which are a ton cheaper. It's also been adopted by US Air Marshalls. As a former Infantry soldier, and professional firearms instructor, I've seen my fair share of NDs. The two biggest human factor causes for NDs are complacency (e.g. not sticking to established drills) and unfamiliarity.
 
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Colin Parkinson

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The good news is that any motivated solider can learn about 3-4 the skills using a pistol on a civy range as they will in the military, that is if JT and crew don't screw us gun owners over any further.
 
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