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Special Forces pulls new pistols from service after soldier injured in misfire

CBH99

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The good news is that any motivated solider can learn about 3-4 the skills using a pistol on a civy range as they will in the military, that is if JT and crew don't screw us gun owners over any further.
Oh they will. Count on it.
 

Haggis

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So, like, there's no direct correlation with rank then, right? :)
"Unfamiliarity". Even GO/FOs should successfully complete TOETs and a PWT before being issued a pistol.

That's what gets me about the public perception of NDs involving senior members. The expectation is that a senior member who causes an ND should be held to a higher standard because their rank and experience should cause them to be more skilled when the inverse is true. A notable exception to this would be our now-VCDS who had his incident while still serving in CANSOFCOM.
 

Haggis

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The good news is that any motivated solider can learn about 3-4 the skills using a pistol on a civy range as they will in the military, that is if JT and crew don't screw us gun owners over any further.
That point, specifically in favour of LEOs, was brought out during the recent injunction hearing against the May 1st Liberal "assault-style" gun ban OIC. The witness told the judge that the ban denied LEOs (and by unspoken extension, CAF members) the ability to conduct off-duty practice with their privately owned but now prohibited AR platforms.

TANGENT - One range out west has barred LEOs from using their service firearms for off duty practice as a direct response to the May 1st OIC.- TANGENT ENDS
 
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Ostrozac

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The M17/M18 has been taken into service by the largest NATO forces over all other competitors including the much vaunted Glocks, which are a ton cheaper.
Actually, it appears that the Sig P320 won the M17/M18 competition largely because Sig quoted a price that was significantly cheaper than the Glock entry — the two company’s pistols receiving essentially identical scoring in all other aspects of the competition.

Commercially, the two pistols are available at essentially the same price point — approx $800 Canadian, approx $600US south of the border. The metal framed Sigs tend to be a bit more expensive, but the polymer frames compete with Glock on price.
 

Eaglelord17

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Just for the record basically every major design ever adopted has had issues of some sort. Look at the M16 and the issues it had early on vs. now it being more or less the standard modern service arms are based off of. The Lee Enfields sights were off as discovered in the Boer War, and that rifle design also went through about 20-30 design updates to get to its final iterations (they were even ready to abandon the design until WWI kicked in). The Browning Hi-Power is a continuation of a design that was in development for close to 35 years, and even then they have about 3 major variations on the design (ours being the first pattern).

I wouldn't discount Sig or any other design because they had a issue they have since resolved. Do a set of trials, let the competitors come forward, and judge them fairly based off how they perform. Anything else is unscientific, you might as well get rid of the procurement system and just order whatever someone thinks is best (our pre-WWI method).
 

Haggis

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Actually, it appears that the Sig P320 won the M17/M18 competition largely because Sig quoted a price that was significantly cheaper than the Glock entry — the two company’s pistols receiving essentially identical scoring in all other aspects of the competition.
Which is exactly what Glock did to win the Ottawa Police contract. The deciding factor, from what I've read, was that Sig added the manual safety, something Glock refused to/couldn't do. When the original RFP came out to replace the Browning, one requirement was a manual ambidextrous safety. This was to mitigate the risk of NDs by casual users.
 

Ostrozac

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Which is exactly what Glock did to win the Ottawa Police contract. The deciding factor, from what I've read, was that Sig added the manual safety, something Glock refused to/couldn't do. When the original RFP came out to replace the Browning, one requirement was a manual ambidextrous safety. This was to mitigate the risk of NDs by casual users.
A manual safety also helps if you have a foreign object in the holster, which is what Sig Sauer alleges contributed to this specific CANSOFCOM incident.

Whether keeping drawstrings, empty casings and gravel out of your holster is an issue best dealt with by training or equipment design, it’s certainly an issue.
 

Haggis

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A manual safety also helps if you have a foreign object in the holster, which is what Sig Sauer alleges contributed to this specific CANSOFCOM incident.
So, that would infer that, in this instance, if it occurred as described by Sig, either the manual safety wasn't engaged or this wasn't an M17 but a stock P320, which is what the media article stated.
 

PuckChaser

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"Unfamiliarity". Even GO/FOs should successfully complete TOETs and a PWT before being issued a pistol.
On that point, we have this gem from Op ATTENTION: https://decisia.jmc-cmj.forces.gc.ca/jmc-cmj/cm/en/item/99003/index.do?q=Colonel

8 months into a 9 month tour, after almost weekly mandatory TEOT refreshers (I know because I was there doing them), a LCol successfully argued he had no knowledge of the TSOs on ND and worse yet, the C7/C8 Carbine manual that contained all the drills he needed to know to DAG Green. Even more ridiculous was the amount of Jr NCMs who didn't get the luxury of "beyond reasonable doubt" and paid fines in the neighbourhood of $1000 per round.
 

Haggis

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On that point, we have this gem from Op ATTENTION: https://decisia.jmc-cmj.forces.gc.ca/jmc-cmj/cm/en/item/99003/index.do?q=Colonel

8 months into a 9 month tour, after almost weekly mandatory TEOT refreshers (I know because I was there doing them), a LCol successfully argued he had no knowledge of the TSOs on ND and worse yet, the C7/C8 Carbine manual that contained all the drills he needed to know to DAG Green. Even more ridiculous was the amount of Jr NCMs who didn't get the luxury of "beyond reasonable doubt" and paid fines in the neighbourhood of $1000 per round.
This case is an excellent example of why I hate NDA S. 129. NDA s 124 (Negligent Performance of a Military Duty) may have been more appropriate and easier to prove as the prosecution doesn't have to prove the alleged offence was contrary to both good order and discipline. The LCol in this case didn't have to prove anything. The onus was on the prosecution to prove that the LCol wasn't aware of the TSO, that the TSO made an ND an offence, and that the LCol was not aware of proper handling drills.

This case also raised and excellent point. The errant round was safely fired into a clearing bay, a designated "safe direction". The intent of a clearing bay is to mitigate any harm which may result from poor weapons handling, momentary inattention or unfamiliarity. This was pointed out by the judge at para 57 who determined that the LCol did act safely.. Contrast this case with that of LCol Fortin who received a $1500 fine for one round fired into the ground or to Col Scagnetti, who had his ND in an office environment and received a $2000 fine for one round.
 

Colin Parkinson

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if someone discharges into a clearing bay, then a "good job that it happened here. Now tonite and tomorrow you be spending time with the M/CPL doing weapon drills till he tells me your skills have improved".
 

daftandbarmy

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if someone discharges into a clearing bay, then a "good job that it happened here. Now tonite and tomorrow you be spending time with the M/CPL doing weapon drills till he tells me your skills have improved".

Or, as in my previous units, that's an immediate charge and you lose 7 days pay. If you happen to be an Officer, it's more of course.

That kind of 'promise' can help incent you to do your drills right.
 

Haggis

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Or, as in my previous units, that's an immediate charge and you lose 7 days pay. If you happen to be an Officer, it's more of course.

That kind of 'promise' can help incent you to do your drills right.
Until the discharge is deemed to have been cause by a mechanical malfunction, which is raised as a defence. Policies that have absolutes are not always workable.
 

daftandbarmy

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Until the discharge is deemed to have been cause by a mechanical malfunction, which is raised as a defence. Policies that have absolutes are not always workable.
I'd like to see the statistics on 'technical' versus 'accidental' malfunctions.

I'm pretty sure the percentage of mechanical malfunctions is minuscule in comparison to operator error.
 

Haggis

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I'm pretty sure the percentage of mechanical malfunctions is minuscule in comparison to operator error.
I have been witness to two in over four decades of shooting. One involved the 9mm SMG C1, which the gun plumbers determined had a badly worn sear. The other was on a civvy range where a pistol slam-fired during an emergency reload. This was caused by a broken firing pin spring. IIRC it was an older 1911 before the firing pin blocks were used.

The overh=whelming majority of unexpected (or, to quote the CBC, "inexplicable") discharges are the result of what IT folks call an "ID ten T" error.
 

daftandbarmy

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I have been witness to two in over four decades of shooting. One involved the 9mm SMG C1, which the gun plumbers determined had a badly worn sear. The other was on a civvy range where a pistol slam-fired during an emergency reload. This was caused by a broken firing pin spring. IIRC it was an older 1911 before the firing pin blocks were used.

The overh=whelming majority of unexpected (or, to quote the CBC, "inexplicable") discharges are the result of what IT folks call an "ID ten T" error.

A great example...

There have been times in the past when my job kept me away from any regular 'trigger time' so I was pretty keen on dragging a switched on Corporal aside to run me through the drills a few times before heading out on patrol/ to the range.

Good for me, because I'm less dangerous to friendly forces, good for the NCM because they get to say 'I trained up the boss today' :)
 
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