Speed, RCMP and 404s

[pteSMITH]

Would someone be able to outline how receiving a speeding ticket with your 404's work if it was given by the RCMP.

I was on the highway in a DND civi-pattern vehicle, and was pulled over for exceeding the speed limit while merging into a connecting highway.  Being co-operative, I handed my 404s over, and the officer asked for my Civilian license, to which I stated it wasn't required in this situation and pointed it out on the 404's. (I didn't have it on me at the time, I just didn't want to tell him that).

He called into his dispatch, and ran my date of birth and they gave him my civi license number.  He basically told me I have two options. Put it on my civi license, and deal with my insurance civi-side, or put it on my 404's and if I just go pay the fine, nothing will happen, and no one will know. But, if I challenge it in court, it will be reverted to my civilian license.

I thinking hastily I said throw it on my 404's and I'll be done with it.  After I got back to my unit, I informed my Sgt. what had happened and asked him what I should do as I don't want to get reprimanded for trying to hide the incident.  He said to pay it and be done with it and "he didn't hear anything."

Should I write a memo up the chain? Will this affect my 404's? Can this actually affect my civilian license, and is it even allowed to, being that I was driving for DND, and not my POMV?

Thoughts?

 

[Love793]

Doh, I'm pretty sure this won't be the last you hear about it.

 

[pteSMITH]

Doh, I'm pretty sure this won't be the last you hear about it.

Guaranteed. But you know the lecture you get before any leave, holiday, etc... Stay out of trouble. And if you get into trouble, tell us and we'll try and sort it out.  I've always been skeptical of that. However, I'd rather deal with it now then have someone coming down on me later for not being forthright about it.

Only two questions remain. How does this affect my license (404/civi) and how to I go about being forthright and not blade my supervisor if he told me to "handle it".
Million dollar question right there.

 

[theoldyoungguy]

In my opinion what I would do. I would have told somebody just as you did. If your Sgt said dont worry about it I would do as he said. I know of friends who have recieved tickets. After going through the chain of command they paid the ticket and nothing further was said of it. I'm pretty sure you would only get your 404's revoked for a serious driving infraction or multiple tickets. I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

 

[TN2IC]

Just remember...... you are in the CF. Don't forget next time.

 

[George Wallace]

One point that you may think of is that not only tell your supervisor verbally, but back it up with a written statement of what happened.  Don't forget to keep a copy, and perhaps have it witnessed or put on your Pers File.  It is a form of CYA, in case the Law does come after you and you need to back up your actions.  

As you said the Mountie came back with your actual Civie Lic number, you know that he ran it through the system.  

Document everything, even if it is in a diary, in the case you may be called to Court.

 

[Fusaki]

Is it legal for a Cop to charge a military member driving a DND vehicle on his civillian license?

We are told that in those situations we hand over our 404s and NOT our civvie license, but whats the point if he can bring up our civvie license number anyways?

Is there grounds to fight the ticket if the charges are on the civvie license and not on 404s?

I know I could go digging through the QR&Os, but maybe someone knows of the top of his head...

 

[PuckChaser]

Chapter 1, Para 26 of the DND Driver's Regulations (latest copy I have dated: 19 Mar 05) states that:

Where a driver is charged with an offense under the Criminal Code of Canada or a Provincial Highway Traffic Act while operating a DND vehicle in the circumstances set out in Military Driver / Operator Permit (DND 404) - Restriction and Suspension, CFAO 19-14, authority may be granted to pay all or part of the legal fees and disbursements incurred to assume the defence of the driver. If found guilty of the charge, the driver is responsible for the payment of any fine and costs of prosecution which might be imposed by the court.

Unfortunately the CFAOs are now gone from the ADM Finance site, and there was no DAOD equivalent. I believe you did the right thing by informing your supervisor right away, and should take the next step and let your Transport cell know and ask them how to handle it. I've always been taught that you cannot have demerit points taken from your civvie license for something you do in a DND vehicle, its up to DND to discipline appropriately.

 

[geo]

Well... you learnt something today... with their computer, the RCMP can identify you - regardless of if you showed them your permit - or not.

per puckchaser's quote - you are responsible for the payment of any fine and court costs.. which means you MUST pay.

Sooo... you have informed your chain of command - shoulda been done in writing.
you should inform the transport section.

The demerit points - you'll prolly get away with not receiving any this time around... mind you, if you get into a habbit of showing up on radar (pun) the RCMP may choose to use harsher means next time.

Find out from your transport NCO about what to do to pay the costs.

 

[stealthylizard]

Got pulled over by MP for driving while uninsured.  Have to go to court for it.  Informed my section commander, and platoon WO, nothing else has been said about it.  Just told to make sure I make it to the court date.  Last thing anyone needs is to be dropped off the list for deployment because of an arrest warrant for failure to show up to court.  I was more worried about the military repercussions from it than anything else, but so far so good.  Start P2's right before court, so the extra little raise will be taken care of for the minimum $2500 fine.  I was more worried about the military repercussions than anything else, because as mentioned above while getting in trouble on leave......

 

[TCBF]

... Only two questions remain. ...

- I have another question.  The Horse Policeman said that if you fought it, it would go on your civ licence.  Really? This is the same RCMP who have walked up to widows in the past and said "Your husband is dead, now give us his guns."  They screw up now and then, too.

- Stop screwing around, and get yourself some legal advice from a lawyer, not a policeman.

 

[gaspasser]

My two pennies worth here,
Just remember that you do not need a civilian driver's licence to operate a DND vehicle, therefore, if you are pulled over by the police for a driving infraction, show your 404's and pay the fine.  1. you won't get points off your civ lic. and 2. you won't be in the system!  Which is very important if you want to get a PRC when joining a youth organization, school or anything! and definately let your dispacther know.
I think the officer was just trying to rattle your cage, they like to do that to young military guys.  Scare 'em once, they won't do it again.
I once got pulled over driving at governed T/T for speeding just outside Halifax (Stewiak hill after not going into the scales at the airport...Mr. Plow!) The Queen's Cowboy tried to rattle my cage and give me a warning. Just be polite and say "Thank you officer, have a nice day"  Keeps you off the radar!!!
Good Luck, keep the speed down to a decent flight cruise and keep the shiny side up!
BYTD 

 

[PuckChaser]

Got pulled over by MP for driving while uninsured.  Have to go to court for it.  Informed my section commander, and platoon WO, nothing else has been said about it.  Just told to make sure I make it to the court date.  Last thing anyone needs is to be dropped off the list for deployment because of an arrest warrant for failure to show up to court.  I was more worried about the military repercussions from it than anything else, but so far so good.  Start P2's right before court, so the extra little raise will be taken care of for the minimum $2500 fine.  I was more worried about the military repercussions than anything else, because as mentioned above while getting in trouble on leave......

You may try using duty counsel for the court date and getting the fine lowered due to financial circumstances. You'd be suprised what a little politeness (maybe even a well-dressed young soldier in DEU) can do to make a judge lower the fines.

 

[George Wallace]

You may try using duty counsel for the court date and getting the fine lowered due to financial circumstances. You'd be suprised what a little politeness (maybe even a well-dressed young soldier in DEU) can do to make a judge lower the fines.

And then there are the crusty old judges who had a hate on for anything military....... >

 

[helpup]

They "LEO's" do get flummoxed by Mil 404's The OPP pulled me over just prior to Algonquin park many moons ago as I was driving a panel Van from Borden.  Showed him my 404's but he didn't want to see them. I had my drivers licence but told him the line we are not required to show them as non civi licenced drivers can have 404's.  He let that soak in and went back to his cruiser came back after a long time and told me I do have a licence but that he would put it on my 404's ( me thinks he talked to Dispatch)  My CoC was with me ( long tasking so not able to info higher ). I took the ticket and although I could of fought it just paid it out and that was the end of it. After the tasking info-ed the CoC for Tn told them it was paid and that was it.  Mind you if it was for a accident or major infraction ( like say I was doing 50 over the posted limit ) then the ticket would go the same route but there is a 80% chance Tn or MSE would get a copy and your 404's would be revoked until after the court case and then the final punishment would be decided. 

 

[kincanucks]

Chapter 1, Para 26 of the DND Driver's Regulations (latest copy I have dated: 19 Mar 05) states that:

Unfortunately the CFAOs are now gone from the ADM Finance site, and there was no DAOD equivalent. I believe you did the right thing by informing your supervisor right away, and should take the next step and let your Transport cell know and ask them how to handle it. I've always been taught that you cannot have demerit points taken from your civvie license for something you do in a DND vehicle, its up to DND to discipline appropriately.

http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/intro_e.asp

 

[ajp]

Its not so bad if you don't lose yourliscence, but...CFAO 19-14

2. Any member of the CF authorized to operate a DND vehicle shall, upon being informed or receiving notice of suspension or cancellation of a civilian driver's licence, immediately report the occurrence and circumstances therewith to the base/station/unit commanding officer (CO). The CO shall act as described in this order.

3.    A member convicted of repeated driving offences under the Criminal
Code of Canada, a provincial Highway Traffic Act or the National Defence
Act (NDA) has exhibited driver characteristics detrimental to the mission
of the CF which could result in the member being permanently prohibited
from driving a DND vehicle.  Every member must be made aware that such
offences can result in disciplinary and/or career action being taken.


6. A member who has been convicted of a driving offence and whose provincial driver's licence has been suspended or cancelled, shall be prohibited from driving a DND vehicle during the period of suspension or cancellation imposed by civilian or military authorities.

 

[GUNS]

Although this is to do with only two of the three subjects( speed and 404's ). Thought it was worth mentioning.

Sometime in the early 70's in Germany, a M109 from A Bty 1 RCHA was caught speeding by the German Police.

Just picture a VW Bug with blue lights flashing chasing down a M109 for speeding. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Story goes that during a Regimental Parade, the Gun Sgt. and Driver were paraded before the CO and  presented with a framed picture of the ticket. I also believe there was a picture of the two German Police Officers handing the ticket to the Gun Sgt.

Not sure what punishment was handed out for the speeding offence but have to say, it was amusing. :warstory:

 

[geo]

Certainly couldn't have been on the Autobahn (musta been a school zone)

 

[2 Cdo]

And then there are the crusty old judges who had a hate on for anything military....... >

Victoria 1984 charged with careless driving. Showed up in court and it seems it's military day and I'm the last case on the docket. The judge was precisely as you described and with each passing case sentencing became stiffer. By the time I get up and pleaded guilty, hoping to get just a little leniency, the judge sentenced me to an 18 month suspension and a $1500 fine! My monthly take home pay was a little over $600 at the time. But I never got in trouble with the law ever again in Victoria! ;D