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Speed, RCMP and 404s

  • Thread starter Thread starter pteSMITH
  • Start date Start date
In the mid-late 70s I was stationed in Victoria with 3 PPCLI. We had one of our young guys take a couple of the local law enforcement agencies on a drunken high-speed chase. They finally stopped him at a roadblock and dragged him out of the car with shotguns at the ready. From what I heard he wasn't even charged by the cops because they knew the military punishment would be worse than anything the civvie courts could hand out. He spent a year-plus in the detention barracks in Edmonton and came back a much nicer boy.
 
Just to add fuel to this fire my TN Nco, showed me an email from the brigade G4 Tn, that if we are pulled over by the police, and are asked to surrender our civy drivers licence, we are to do so if we have one.  There was a ref in the email, I don't remember it off the top of my head, I am not back into work until tuesday, I will get a copy and post it.  No one get pissy at me here, I am just the messenger.
 
Sounds like someone trying to play god in your brigade IMHO.

Cause it clearly states on the 404's,

Military drivers do not require a provincial driver's license to operate DND owned or leased vehicles on public roads in Canada, providing they hold this permit and it is valid.
 
Military drivers do not require a provincial driver's license to operate DND owned or leased vehicles on public roads in Canada, providing they hold this permit and it is valid.

NFLD Sapper

The quote you gave has nothing to do with the subject. Personnel can be placed on Driver Wheeled Crses and BDTs and given qualifications for those vehs/equip that they have trained on, even if they do not have a PDL.
 
Hatchet Man said:
Just to add fuel to this fire my TN Nco, showed me an email from the brigade G4 Tn, that if we are pulled over by the police, and are asked to surrender our civy drivers licence, we are to do so if we have one.  There was a ref in the email, I don't remember it off the top of my head, I am not back into work until tuesday, I will get a copy and post it.  No one get pissy at me here, I am just the messenger.

Fdtrucker said:
NFLD Sapper

The quote you gave has nothing to do with the subject. Personnel can be placed on Driver Wheeled Crses and BDTs and given qualifications for those vehs/equip that they have trained on, even if they do not have a PDL.

And I stated that according to the 404 document you don't need to carry one with you.
 
NFLD Sapper said:
Sounds like someone trying to play god in your brigade IMHO.

Cause it clearly states on the 404's,

I don't know, there was a ref in the email, i "think" related to some QR&O,  I will find out for sure on tuesday.
 
NFLD Sapper said:
And I stated that according to the 404 document you don't need to carry one with you.

Actually what it says  (according to the quote you provided previously) is that you do not need a provincial driver's license to operate a DND vehicle, it does not say anything about providing a PDL (if you are the holder of one) when so demanded by a civilian police officer.

Just because a driver is in the CF and maybe operating a DND vehicle does not exempt them from provincial legislation/regulation.  This may be one of those circumstances where there is a gray area, not because civilian police officers are overstepping their bounds, but because there may be no "legislation" to cover the situation.

All the provinces have one or more pieces of legislation that covers the operation of vehicles and the licensing of drivers, including a requirement to produce the applicable provincial drivers license when so demanded by a police officer.  That legislation also (usually) includes exemptions to that requirement.  In Ontario, the Highway Traffic Act contains the following.
As to carrying licences and surrender on demand

33.  (1)  Every driver of a motor vehicle or street car shall carry his or her licence with him or her at all times while he or she is in charge of a motor vehicle or street car and shall surrender the licence for reasonable inspection upon the demand of a police officer or officer appointed for carrying out the provisions of this Act. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 33 (1).

Same, re novice driver rules

(2)  Every accompanying driver, as defined under section 57.1, shall carry his or her licence and shall surrender the licence for reasonable inspection upon the demand of a police officer or officer appointed for carrying out the provisions of this Act. 1993, c. 40, s. 3.

Identification on failure to surrender licence

(3)  Every person who is unable or refuses to surrender his or her licence in accordance with subsection (1) or (2) shall, when requested by a police officer or officer appointed for carrying out the provisions of this Act, give reasonable identification of himself or herself and, for the purposes of this subsection, the correct name and address of the person shall be deemed to be reasonable identification. 1993, c. 40, s. 3.

Exemption as to non-residents, licensing requirements

34.  (1)  Section 32 and any regulation made thereunder do not apply to any person who is,

(a) a resident of any other province of Canada, who is at least sixteen years of age and has complied with the law of the province in which he or she resides as to the drivers of motor vehicles; or

(b) a resident of any other country or state,

(i) who is at least sixteen years of age and is the holder of a valid International Driver’s Permit, or

(ii) who is at least sixteen years of age and has not resided in Ontario for more than three months in any one year and has complied with the law of the country or state in which he or she resides as to the licensing of drivers of motor vehicles. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 34 (1).

Exemption of new residents

(2)  Section 32 and any regulation made thereunder do not apply to a person for sixty days after he or she has become a resident of Ontario if during such period he or she holds a subsisting driver’s licence in accordance with the laws of the province, country or state of which he or she was a resident immediately before becoming a resident of Ontario. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 34 (2).

In Alberta, one of the pieces of legislation that deals with licensing also includes a similar exemption for "foreign" military members (if they are licensed in their home country) who are in Canada under SOFA.  However, I haven't found any legislation or regulation that exempts a member of the CF from producing his PDL when duly requested by a police officer.

The reason why civilian authorities may want to see a PDL and not just a DND 404 may be explained by this:
http://www.accessandprivacy.gov.on.ca/english/pir/mun/i94-048m.html
INVESTIGATION REPORT
INVESTIGATION I94-048M
A REGIONAL POLICE

INTRODUCTION

Background of the Complaint

This investigation was initiated as a result of a complaint concerning a regional police force (the Police).

The complainant, a private in the Canadian Armed Forces, was driving a military vehicle when he was stopped by a police officer for a traffic violation. The Police Officer requested the complainant's name, birth date, home address and driver's licence. The complainant provided his name, birth date, military base address and his military driver's licence, Form DND-404. The Police Officer requested the complainant's Ontario driver's license issued by the Ministry of Transportation (MTO) under the Highway Traffic Act. The complainant refused to provide the MTO driver's license. The Police Officer then checked the complainant on the Canadian Police Information Centre (CPIC) by using his name and birth date. CPIC provided the Police Officer with the complainant's home address and his MTO driver's licence number. The Police Officer then wrote the complainant a Provincial Offences Notice ticket (the Ticket) for the traffic violation, using the MTO driver's license number.

The complainant stated that the Police should have accepted his military driver's license and should not have collected his MTO driver's license number from CPIC. He was concerned that the Police's collection and use of this information was contrary to the Municipal Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act (the Act).

Issues Arising from the Investigation

The following issues were identified as arising from the investigation:

(A) Was the information in question "personal information", as defined in section 2(1) of the Act? If yes,

(B) Was the Police's collection of the personal information in compliance with section 28(2) of the Act?

(C) Was the Police's use of the personal information in compliance with section 31 of the Act?

RESULTS OF THE INVESTIGATION

Issue A: Was the information in question "personal information", as defined in section 2(1) of the Act?

Section 2(1) of the Act states, in part:

"personal information" means recorded information about an identifiable individual, including,

(a) information relating to the race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation or marital or family status of the individual,

(c) any identifying number, symbol or other particular assigned to the individual,

(d) the address, telephone number, fingerprints or blood type of the individual,

The information in question was the complainant's name, birth date, home address and MTO driver's licence number.

It is our view that this information met the requirements of paragraphs (a), (c), and (d) of the definition of personal information in section 2(1) of the Act.

Conclusion: The information in question was personal information as defined in section 2(1) of the Act.

Issue B: Was the Police's collection of the personal information in compliance with section 28(2) of the Act?

Under the Act, personal information cannot be collected except in the specific circumstances outlined in section 28(2) of the Act which states:

No person shall collect personal information on behalf of an institution unless the collection is expressly authorized by statute, used for the purposes of law enforcement or necessary to the proper administration of a lawfully authorized activity. (emphasis added)

The Police stated that they are responsible for enforcing and regulating compliance with the Criminal Code of Canada as well as provincial and municipal legislation. CPIC is a national repository of police operational information that is a vital resource shared within Canadian law enforcement agencies. The Police advised us that CPIC is a tool used by police in carrying out their duties as dictated by the Police Services Act. For example, it is a regular procedure to run a CPIC check on a person stopped by a police officer for a driving violation. CPIC is used to ascertain if a person is wanted on a criminal warrant, for an investigation, or is a suspended driver. CPIC also gives officers pertinent information needed for public and officer safety. The CPIC system gives information about whether a person is violent or a possible suicide risk.

The Police advised us that the complainant's name and birth date were collected from the complainant for the purpose of checking the CPIC system to see if the complainant had been suspended from driving, and for the purpose of issuing the Ticket for the traffic violation. The complainant's MTO driver's license number was collected from CPIC by the Police Officer also for the purpose of issuing the Ticket for the traffic violation. The Police stated that all of the complainant's personal information was collected to be used for the purpose of law enforcement, in compliance with section 28(2) of the Act.

In our view, the complainant's name and birth date were collected during the course of the Police Officer's duties as a law enforcement officer, further to the Police Services Act. The collection was for the purpose of checking the CPIC system regarding whether the complainant had been suspended from driving, and to prepare a complete Ticket. Since the complainant's name and birth date were used for the purposes of law enforcement, it is our view that the collection of this personal information was in compliance with section 28(2) of the Act.


In our view, the Police collected the complainant's MTO driver's license number to issue him a ticket for his traffic violation, for the purpose of enforcing the Highway Traffic Act. Since the Police used the complainant's MTO driver's license number for the purposes of law enforcement, it is our view that the collection of this personal information was in compliance with section 28(2) of the Act.

With regard to the collection of the complainant's home address, the Ticket contained the complainant's military address and not his home address. In our view, in order for a collection to have taken place, retention of the information in a recorded form must occur. Since the Police Officer did not record the complainant's home address on the Ticket, the collection of the complainant's home address in a recorded form did not take place and section 28(2) of the Act did not apply.

Conclusion: The Police collected the complainant's name, birth date, and MTO driver's license number in compliance with section 28(2) of the Act.

The Police did not collect the complainant's home address, therefore, section 28(2) of the Act did not apply.

Issue C: Was the Police's use of the personal information in compliance with section 31 of the Act?

Under the Act, personal information in the custody and control of an institution cannot be used except in the specific circumstances outlined in section 31 of the Act .

The Police stated that they relied upon section 31(b) of the Act as its authority for the use of the complainant's personal information. This section states that an institution shall not use personal information in its custody or under its control except "for the purpose for which it was obtained or compiled or for a consistent purpose".

The Police used the complainant's name and birth date to check the CPIC system to determine whether the complainant had been suspended from driving, and to complete the Ticket for the traffic violation. In Issue B we found that the complainant's name and birth date were collected by the Police for the purposes of law enforcement. Since the complainant's name and birth date were used for the purpose for which they were obtained by the Police, their use was in compliance with section 31(b) of the Act.

The Police informed us that information available from CPIC is used to detect, prevent and suppress crime and to enforce of the law. The Police Officer used the complainant's MTO driver's license number for the purpose of issuing the complainant a ticket for a traffic violation under the Highway Traffic Act. Since the complainant's MTO driver's license number was collected for use for law enforcement purposes, it is our view that the complainant's personal information was used for the purpose for which it was obtained by the Police, in compliance with section 31(b) of the Act.

Conclusion: The Police used the complainant's personal information in compliance with section 31 of the Act.

Other Matters

The complainant stated that he thought that the Police Officer should have accepted his military license instead of his MTO driver's license number, in order to complete the Ticket. However, since there was no collection and use of the complainant's military driver's license under the Act, its provisions do not apply to this matter and we are unable to comment further.

The Police, nevertheless, advised us that they felt that they should clarify their "Policy and Procedure" which deals with military drivers and vehicles for police officers. Therefore, the Police are in the process of reviewing the National Defence Act and other relevant legislation, to determine whether the present "Policy and Procedure" should be revised.

SUMMARY OF CONCLUSIONS

The information in question was personal information as defined in section 2(1) of the Act.

The Police collected the complainant's name, birth date and MTO driver's license number in compliance with section 28(2) of the Act.

The Police did not collect the complainant's home address, therefore, section 28(2) of the Act did not apply.

The Police used the complainant's personal information in compliance with section 31 of the Act.

Original Signed By: Susan Anthistle, Compliance Review Officer
December 22, 1994





 
Getting back to a earlier post about complaining about a ticket.  I have had about a 5 in over 20 years ( well spaced out ) And I have gotten a by on 5 more.  I have never complained for getting one. Once I see the lights on I pull over car off, lights on hands on steering wheel. and go from there. The LEO is doing his job and I am not there to make it harder.  My own driving habits are to drive the speed of traffic, usually just fast enough to pass people.  On long trips this keeps me fully engaged on the road and less Zoning out. I pass only were allowed and only if i have enough of a count to fully and safely get by the guy in front. I slow down if I notice on coming traffic does not do that.  I firmly follow the 2-3 second rule for following traffic. Most of the times I have been caught were in hilly sections at night when I noticed a headlight approaching and I stomp on the gas to ensure I pass safely. ( the oncoming naturally being a LEO ) Also on caveat when in Montreal I drive like a native ( it is the only safe way )
In military veh I tend to stay with the traffic herd more. And in Convoy follow the speed and spacing dictated.

Each time I get pulled over the same thing happens. Cop walks up and says do you know how fast you were going.  "I did the moment I saw you" that being the truth.
 
I was pulled over by an OPP once on Hwy 26 near Borden. not for speeding, but for suspicious activity I was running a Adv. Trg program (we were canoeing the notawasaga) in and out of back roads to get to the river. Well this OPP had no problem with the 404's it was the inability to produce the paper work,(insurance and registration) 2 hours on the side of the road waiting for his shift Sgt. and a MP to attend. The next day I was orderd to return my 51/4 ton and sign for a civ pickup, as it comes with some paper work.
 
jeep...
DND vehicle paperwork.... "work ticket" = registration
Insurance.... DND & CF carry what is refered to as "self assumed insurance" - Dealing thru the Underwriter's adjustment bureau (UAB)

It's all in how you explain it to the LEO
 
Not just that, but it's all about what you know.  I am pretty darned sure that most soldiers (admittedly myself included) would not know that kind of stuff geo.

I got stopped in Notre Dame du Lac in December on one of my 8 hour IR posting drives back from Gagetown. I pulled over, hands on steering wheel and when asked for licence, registration, etc.. I produced all that and my military ID card.  My theory on this is that it is always good to signal who I am and worst case is they will return it with no need for it. 

I was given a verbal warning and allowed to carry on my voyage that day.

 
geo said:
jeep...
DND vehicle paperwork.... "work ticket" = registration
Insurance.... DND & CF carry what is refered to as "self assumed insurance" - Dealing thru the Underwriter's adjustment bureau (UAB)

It's all in how you explain it to the LEO
bzzlityr,
this information SHOULD have been given to you when you did a BDT or BDW crse.  If not, then the DS were not doing thier job. 
True, your work ticket is your registration and insurance (DND does not carry insurance BTW) for that vehicle and is your authorization to be operating that vehicle. 
The strange thing is: you do not require a PDL to hold a 404.  But if you loose you PDL for any reason, there goes your 404s too.  When operating DND vehicles, you are not required to produce you PDL when pulled over for a driving infraction by the police.
What a long thread over a simple thing.  Lets get back to the original idea behind this thread...Keep the speed down to the limit and what DDC has taught you!  And remember, here in Ontario, 50km over ANY speed limit is considered racing and dangerous driving.  YOU will loose you license on the spot!
:cdn:
 
DND does not carry insurance BTW
That is something you should NEVER say to either LEOs or persons with whom you have just gotten into a collision with.  You're just going to upset the locals - who don't understand the concept.

DND vehicles ARE insured by the Government of Canada itself.... AKA self assumed insurance... The Government of Canada will compensate insurance companies for losses & repair it's own fleet at it's own expense.
The UAB has been contracted out by the Government of Canada to deal with the paperwork...
 
When I knew I would be off base in a DND vehicle, I would always leave my civvy driver's licence in my locker.
I was only pulled over once (rolling stop), produced 404's,ID. He asked for my civvy licence, told the officer that I never carry my civvy licence when operating a DND vehicle.
He seemed unsure as to what to do, he went back to his vehicle, five minutes later he returns and instructed me on the proper method of coming to a complete stop, told to be more attentive to my driving and let me go.  :warstory:

Flip side of story, I was just posted to Valcartier from Petawawa and had not changed over my civvy licence. God knows how it would have turned out if I produced my civvy licence. Another thing may have helped, his English was as bad as my French.
 
geo said:
jeep...
DND vehicle paperwork.... "work ticket" = registration
Insurance.... DND & CF carry what is refer ed to as "self assumed insurance" - Dealing thru the Underwriter's adjustment bureau (UAB)

It's all in how you explain it to the LEO
I know that but the OPP officer with 7 months on the job did not grasp this simple concept.
 
as promised here is that email

From:
Sent: Friday, 23, January, 2009 10:15 AM
To: #32 CBG TPT Reps
Cc: #32 CBG Ops & Training
Subject: DND 404 - Provincial Drivers Licence

32 CBG Tpt Reps

It has come to light again that when DND mbrs are asked by civilian police agencies to provide their Prov Lic while operating DND MSE they are refusing to do so.

As per Transportation Manual A-LM-158-005/AG-001, Chap 3, Sect 2, para 48 which states:

"all operators shall present their DND 404 and when requested by civilian police, produce their drivers licence.  IF the DND 404 is not recognized, the driver shall contact the TA who will take the appropriate action and may contact their respective AJAG if need be,"

Ensure that all your operators are aware of this.

Sgt
A/G4 Tn
32 CBG HQ

Names removed
 
Hatchet Man said:
as promised here is that email

From:
Sent: Friday, 23, January, 2009 10:15 AM
To: #32 CBG TPT Reps
Cc: #32 CBG Ops & Training
Subject: DND 404 - Provincial Drivers Licence

32 CBG Tpt Reps

It has come to light again that when DND mbrs are asked by civilian police agencies to provide their Prov Lic while operating DND MSE they are refusing to do so.

As per Transportation Manual A-LM-158-005/AG-001, Chap 3, Sect 2, para 48 which states:

"all operators shall present their DND 404 and when requested by civilian police, produce their drivers licence.  IF the DND 404 is not recognized, the driver shall contact the TA who will take the appropriate action and may contact their respective AJAG if need be,"

Ensure that all your operators are aware of this.

Sgt
A/G4 Tn
32 CBG HQ

Names removed

It was very frustrating to look up on AEL, but someone finally sent me a link and there is no Chapter 3, Section 2, para 8.

What I found was:
A-LM-158-005/AG-001, TRANSPORTATION MANUAL
(Supersedes A-LM-158-005/AG-001 dated 2006-01-01)
(Supersedes A-LM-158-005/AG-001 dated 2007-05-17)

Chapter 3, Section 2, does not have a para 8.  It does have this:

SECTION 2

FEDERAL/PROVINCIAL REGULATIONS

43.       The Crown is not bound by provincial legislation or regulations unless, in its own interest, it so chooses. CF members or DND employees operating DND vehicles under due authority are not subject to the regulations contained in provincial or municipal legislation or regulations relating to motor vehicles. However, to further the safe operation of DND MSE and foster good public relations, provincial and municipal regulations should be complied with where such compliance does not conflict with DND requirements. The principal governing the DND relationship with the provinces regarding the operation of MSE is that there shall be no provincial jurisdiction over DND MSE, either real or implied. Hired MSE (commercial driver with vehicle) is not considered DND MSE for the purposes of the section and must comply with provincial or municipal legislation or regulations. DND transportation services’ rented MSE (commercial vehicle operated by a DND/CF driver) using Base Transportation’s standing offer is DND MSE. However, the DND/CF driver should be prepared to cooperate with provincial and municipal authority when requested. It is recommended that they provide authorities with the rental agreement, the trip ticket and the DND 404 if required.


44. There must be no misunderstanding between DND and provincial or municipal authorities regarding the status of DND MSE. Every effort shall be made to foster good public relations with provincial or municipal officials and to acquaint them with the DND standards for the operation and maintenance of MSE. Should any difficulty with provincial or municipal officials be encountered, the applicable regional AJAG, the Command TA and D TN shall be informed without delay.


45. Links to Provincial Transportation Ministries can be found in TD 307.

46. CF military drivers do not require a provincial driver’s licence (PDL) to operate DND MSE on public roads in Canada. Personnel shall not be issued a DND Driver Permit based solely on possession of a graduated provincial driver’s licence. They are to be treated as if they had no PDL.

47.          The DND Driver Permit (hereafter referred to as the Permit) is the document that is given to the individual as proof of authorization to drive/operate listed DND vehicles/equipment. The Permit issued to the drivers/operators, lists only the DND vehicles the individual is currently authorized to operate. A Permit may be issued and revoke at the discretion of the TA. Possession of the paper Permit is mandatory for driver/operators while operating any DND vehicle.

48. Drivers of DND MSE shall present their DND 404 when requested by civilian police to produce a driver’s licence. If the DND 404 is not recognized, the driver shall contact the TA who will take appropriate action and may contact their respective AJAG if need be.

49. Any suspension of a PDL can result in a suspension/withdrawal of the Permit. The decision of a court of law, for any administrative purpose, to re-instate a member’s PDL pending hearing of the case, does not automatically justify the re-instatement of the member’s DND Driver Permit and/or driving privileges. No modification will be permitted to a DND
vehicle to accommodate drivers under restriction due to a DWI conviction. Refer to Chapter 5, for more details on the PDL Suspension’s Policy.

50. Eligibility to obtain the Permit is different depending if the applicant is either a military member or a civilian employee. For further details regarding Driver’s Permit, refer to Chapter 5.
 
Jager said:
And what does the LEO do if the 404 Auth driver doesn't have a Civi drivers permit of any kind at all? Would that be a problem for them (either the Leo, or member), or no? Just wondering since you said that they use the Civi license in there report afterwards.

Let me add a little more info here to clear the sky.


Well here if you do not carry a civi license, you should have some form of Provincial ID.. and the ID's they issue out here will carry the same master number as the PDL. It follows the same system. ie Proof of Age ID system.


Regards,
Mr Plow
 
George Wallace said:
Names removed


It was very frustrating to look up on AEL, but someone finally sent me a link and there is no Chapter 3, Section 2, para 8.

What I found was:
A-LM-158-005/AG-001, TRANSPORTATION MANUAL
(Supersedes A-LM-158-005/AG-001 dated 2006-01-01)
(Supersedes A-LM-158-005/AG-001 dated 2007-05-17)

Chapter 3, Section 2, does not have a para 8.  It does have this:

So in other words George someone rewrote the para to thier liking
 
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