Stephen Harper pledges expansion of military reserves

[Humphrey Bogart]

Given the current state of the regular army, navy and airforce I would hazard a guess that with the exception of a few high readiness units the regular force is in exactly the same shape (proportionately speaking) and they are supposed to have the assets to do this. 

This is a CAF wide problem that isn't just limited to the reserves.

I would dispute this as you can still assign a unit of Regulars a task and expect it to be conducted in some sort of organized fashion.  Many Reserve units couldn't organize a kiddy corral much less get themselves ready for war in any sort of reasonable amount of time. 

There is a big difference between a Regular Battalion/Regiment and a Reserve Unit.  If you don't think so and think that they are somehow interchangeable than you're part of the problem.     

 

[kratz]

I think you are looking at it from the wrong end.  Why incentivize soldiers to go Reserve when it makes better economic sense to incentivize them to stay in the Reg Force?  It costs more to recruit and train that regular replacement to the same standard than it does to recruit and train a reservist who does not have to meet the same standard.

There is the sticking point (in yellow).

When the reserve is trained to the RegF standard....it "takes too long", for many justifiable reasons.

When the reserve is not trained to the RegF standard....we are not considered reliable when needed, defeating the purpose for the reserve and eroding confidence in the organization.

 

[Remius]

I would dispute this as you can still assign a unit of Regulars a task and expect it to be conducted in some sort of organized fashion.  Many Reserve units couldn't organize a kiddy corral much less get themselves ready for war in any sort of reasonable amount of time. 

There is a big difference between a Regular Battalion/Regiment and a Reserve Unit.  If you don't think so and think that they are somehow interchangeable than you're part of the problem.   

Your bias is showing.  I don't think you have a real grasp on the current state of the CAF.  I never said they were the same so don't put words in my mouth. It all depends on the task you give them.  Aside from a few high readiness units the CAF as whole has the same problems the reserves have at getting ready to jump at a moments notice like you stated.  We can barely put ships at sea, the recruiting system is effed up, the regular force can barely man it's own positions let alone fill their RSS spots.  The CAF regular force is not a high readiness machine you make it out to be.  DART, SOF and a few limited units at most.  Heck they can barely get anyone for tasks without having to go to the reserves for bodies.

If you think the reserves are the only ones with these issues then I would argue that YOU are part of the problem.

 

[MilEME09]

Ok so lets hypothetically say they get the bodies in the door, who is going to train them? we would have a massive training back log especially for support trades which have limited room. I would see the CAF having years of training backlog beyond what it already is. Was talking to a guy today who waited almost his entire contract before he was on his QL3 (reg force), I know reservists that have had to wait years because intake was full and only say 3 or 4 from their brigade were taken each year. This is an unacceptable wait time, combined with recruiting system short falls, it is no wonder how sorry of a state the CAF is in. Overhauling recruiting would fix is one problem, we need to get people in the door in under three months or majority of them will walk. Is it possible? I think so but it goes back to short staffing all across the system. The second problem is once they are in especially in the reserves, is keeping them in, saying to johnny oh by the way you wont be able to do your trade for 3 years because of a training back log is unacceptable.

 

[ArmyRick]

I was Reg Force at one time and now I am a reservist. I have deployed as a reg force and a reserve soldier.

Let me lay down the infantry perspective
-Yes, the Reg Force are generally at better at doing the job, you usually practice the skills more often (when $$$ allow)
-The reservist can gain a considerable amount of professionalism and skill sets, while maybe NOT at the reg force level, BUT pre-deployment trg can really shake things out.
-IMO, if after 4-6 months of pre-deployment trg you are not ready, YOU NEVER WILL BE (no matter if Res F or Reg F)
-Yes, there are some Reserve force members (usually older longer serving guys) that treat it like a social club but lets not forget the reg force old dog hidden away in some job and clinging desperately to the CAF for a job, but unable to ever go back to a battalion because of age, medical, pissed off who-ever

I personally believe we really need to bolster reservist, especially numbers. IMO, we should outnumber Reg F 3:1. The Regs will have a deeper pool of troops to call upon. And if recent history says anything, you will call upon us.

Army (Farmy) Rick out

 

[Remius]

Well said.

A three to one ration would indeed be ideal but much like this promised expansion, I doubt we'll see it any time soon unfortunately.

 

[FortYorkRifleman]

What's being proposed by Harper isn't radically different than what Reservists are doing now. Ceremonies? GD, Warrior's Day Parades, Remembrance Day. Natural Disasters? Look what happened just recently with firefighting roles.

When I was parading as a Infantry recruit I noticed that we never paraded at full or even 75% strength. Many people showed up once a month and went on exes and that was it. In the Admin side there were so many people waiting to be released after having made no contact with their Chain of Command they were released 5f. Many of the Cpls were doing the duties of Sgts, too.

Not sure what this accomplishes... jobs?

 

[LightFighter]

When I was parading as a Infantry reservist

You mean when you were parading as a recruit, you never finished BMQ. 


As a recruit in PAT Pl, how were you aware of the unit strength on paper vs parade strength of who showed up and "many of the Cpls doing the duties of a Sgt" etc.

I don't doubt a couple Cpls may have been employed in what is typically a Sgt job(section commander) but I wouldn't say that's many Cpls doing a sgt's job or what you as a recruit believe is a Sgt's job.

 

[FortYorkRifleman]

You mean when you were parading as a recruit, you never finished BMQ.

Yes I stand corrected

 

[FortYorkRifleman]

You mean when you were parading as a recruit, you never finished BMQ. 


As a recruit in PAT Pl, how were you aware of the unit strength on paper vs parade strength of who showed up and "many of the Cpls doing the duties of a Sgt" etc.

I don't doubt a couple Cpls may have been employed in what is typically a Sgt job(section commander) but I wouldn't say that's many Cpls doing a sgt's job or what you as a recruit believe is a Sgt's job.

I surmised based on many the recruiter said was in the unit vs what I saw and was told while in the Training company. Do I know specifics? No given what the "on paper" size of the regiment vs the attendance on a parade night it was a big difference. On the issue of what duties this or that person does it was told to me by my 2 i/c who said he can do the job of x rank on certain courses/exercises. 

 

[Kirkhill]

The budget allows for 68,250 Full Time Equivalents.

I regularly hear that there are only something like  60,000 paid and 55,000 effectives.  That seems to leave a shortfall of anything from 8 to 13,000 FTEs annually.

The Reserves have an authorized strength of 24,000, potentially expanding to 30,000.  About 20,000 of the existing 24,000 are allocated to the Army Reserves.

If we start from the premise that a Reserve soldier, when not on parade, costs zero dollars then 24,000 times zero equals zero.

If we take the FTE shortfall at 8000 FTEs then there should be money in the budget to employ every one of those Reservists for 1/3 of the year, or 80 to 120 days, depending on how you calculate it.

If the Reservists were handled by the USMC and their system then in year 1 of their 8 year contract the reservist would be employed for 84 days in Basic training + 24 days of monthly training (1 weekend per month) for a total of 108 days.

In years 2,3 and 4 the employment requirement is for 24 days of monthly training plus 15 days of annual camp for a total of 39 days or 117 days total.

After year 4 the Reservist transfers to the Individual Ready Reserve, or Supp List, and is not required to show up at the Armouries but is liable for call up.

That means that an eight year contract requires a total of 225 days of service - or roughly one PY: a ratio of 8 Reservists for 1 FTE.  That would suggest that an 8000 PY shortfall in Regs, could accomodate a Reserve of 64,000 with half of that being on Class A status or Basic and the other half being recently qualified troops on the Supp List.

That would create a pool of trained, effective, troops that can be called up to fill in the blanks.

It doesn't appear to me that the problem is one of lack of resources.  The problem is one of effectively managing the resources available.

A larger pool of Reservists doesn't have to cost more.  In fact a larger pool means fewer demands on any individual reservist that makes it more likely that the service will appeal to a larger pool of civilians.

:2c:


http://www.marines.com/eligibility/service-options/reserve

Edit to add:  I am sure that bringing in young soldiers right out of High School to do their Basic in the summer holidays would result in many of those volunteering for extra days (beyond the minimum 39) in the next couple of summers allowing them to fill up the ranks in Reg Force units during the summer exercise season.

 

[dapaterson]

The budget allows for 68,250 Full Time Equivalents.

I regularly hear that there are only something like  60,000 paid and 55,000 effectives.  That seems to leave a shortfall of anything from 8 to 13,000 FTEs annually.

Strongly incorrect.  Reg F numbers are signficiantly larger.  On an annual basis, funding is allocated to meet expected strength, with unused funds reallocated prior to the start of the FY to address a variety of pressures.

 

[quadrapiper]

I think you are looking at it from the wrong end.  Why incentivize soldiers to go Reserve when it makes better economic sense to incentivize them to stay in the Reg Force?  It costs more to recruit and train that regular replacement to the same standard than it does to recruit and train a reservist who does not have to meet the same standard.

How much would a "meaningful" incentive (bonus, IPC jump, whatever), perhaps available only to departing members beyond a certain rank/training level, cost compared to X years of training a reservist to the same point?

 

[McG]

If WW3 broke out, you wouldn't need to creat new infantry regiments, you would just expand the reserve regiments and send them off to war.

It would probably take the reserves 2 years of training (and firing people) to put them into a position to deploy overseas as regiments

If it were to come to such a scenario, I think we will find equipment (not people) to be the critical path.

I would dispute this as you can still assign a unit of Regulars a task and expect it to be conducted in some sort of organized fashion.  Many Reserve units couldn't organize a kiddy corral much less get themselves ready for war in any sort of reasonable amount of time. 

There is a big difference between a Regular Battalion/Regiment and a Reserve Unit.  If you don't think so and think that they are somehow interchangeable than you're part of the problem. 

I don't think you have a real grasp on the current state of the CAF.  ....  The CAF regular force is not a high readiness machine you make it out to be.  DART, SOF and a few limited units at most. 

You understand that DART does not actually exist as a ready-to-go unit?  It is a small Ops and resource caretaker organization that draws on Reg F augmentation from various units accross the country.  Meanwhile, the recent Saskatchewan fire responce was launched by an average Reg F Infantry Bn which was, at the time of call-up, just going about its routine buisness in garrison.

I personally believe we really need to bolster reservist, especially numbers. IMO, we should outnumber Reg F 3:1. The Regs will have a deeper pool of troops to call upon. And if recent history says anything, you will call upon us.

As we start moving away from the Conservative proposal and discussing our own good ideas on PRes roles, organization and size, then I think we are getting into discussion more befiting of this thread.  But ...  How do you arrive at the 3:1 ratio?

The budget allows for 68,250 Full Time Equivalents.

I regularly hear that there are only something like  60,000 paid and 55,000 effectives.  That seems to leave a shortfall of anything from 8 to 13,000 FTEs annually.

The Reserves have an authorized strength of 24,000, potentially expanding to 30,000.  About 20,000 of the existing 24,000 are allocated to the Army Reserves.

If we start from the premise that a Reserve soldier, when not on parade, costs zero dollars then 24,000 times zero equals zero.

If we take the FTE shortfall at 8000 FTEs then there should be money in the budget to employ every one of those Reservists for 1/3 of the year, or 80 to 120 days, depending on how you calculate it.

Be carefull that you are using your terms correctly.  FTE is a term that encompasses all types of human resources.  Three civilian casual employees who operate riding lawnmowers through the summer may equate to an FTE.  "FTE" could be used to discuss reservists with Class A, Class B and Class C all considered, but it would seem to be an abstract means of accounting for most purposes.  FTE is not a synonym for Reg F PY, but I think it is Reg F PYs that you are talking about.  Are you proposing that the authorized Reg F establishment be cut in order to fund more PRes pay?

 

[FortYorkRifleman]

Assuming this does happen will this mean the creation of new regiments or expanding existing ones?

 

[CountDC]

Heres an idea - how about we fill the positions we already have?  Last re-org in 2013 removed the war time/peace time positions and made them all available but with restricted SIP, enormous wait times for recruits to get in and limited budgets units are not able to fill them.  Shorten the recruiting time, take care of the course issues and increase the funding so that units functioning at less than half strength can fill more of their establishment.  Include fully funding all the Class B positions instead of just 75% along with giving them back to the units instead of taking them for Bde and Divs.

 

[Remius]

If it were to come to such a scenario, I think we will find equipment (not people) to be the critical path.


You understand that DART does not actually exist as a ready-to-go unit?  It is a small Ops and resource caretaker organization that draws on Reg F augmentation from various units accross the country.  Meanwhile, the recent Saskatchewan fire responce was launched by an average Reg F Infantry Bn which was, at the time of call-up, just going about its routine buisness in garrison.

Agreed.  Equipment is definitely an issue and it is why this is a CAF issue not just a reg or reserve issue.

Well aware of DART's composition.  But they have an ready HQ, equipment, a readily accessible base and sigs unit. And equipment.  The people they pull from across the CAF aren't just randomn.  They are for the most part dagged, pre screened and have trained for DART. 

As for the fire response, yeah, but the reserves managed the same thing during the ice storm (and they were in far worse shape back then as far as being equipped).  Like I said it depends on the task or the mission or the logistics and dependant on geography and the ability to get there.

 

[Remius]

back to the election promise...

Like I said I don't buy it.  I bought it last time.  I have no reason to believe they will follow through.

I've mentioned this before but I suspect that reserve restructure and increase could come with an NDP government.  But at the expense of the regular force and with a completely different view of what they would do.  Not an ideal alternative.

 

[geo]

You can plan to hire and employ as many reservists as you want, but the day the government tells the CF to cut xx millions from his budget, where do you think he's going to cut 1st....

Class A reservists payroll & field training budget is one of the only places the CDS can cut, without hamstringing his ability to field an effective fighting force.

 

[cupper]

You can plan to hire and employ as many reservists as you want, but the day the government tells the CF to cut xx millions from his budget, where do you think he's going to cut 1st....

Class A reservists payroll & field training budget is one of the only places the CDS can cut, without hamstringing his ability to field an effective fighting force.

I remember those days in the mid 80's. Training nights and weekends reduced, charging certain members to the District JV accounts rather than the unit accounts.

Happy days are here again!