Strategic advice for RPing Canada in an alt. history 1936.

[PrairieBoy]

An update: In addition to the 1.8 million men of the Regular Force, I also have a Militia Force numbering about 500,000, mostly in the Army Militia. These consist of two kinds of regimentsL militia infantry primarily armed with Lee- Enfields and WWI-surplus Lewis guns, and the Mounted Rifles, also with Lee Enfields and more recent Bren guns.

Now, my defence plans currently are in two stages. The plan assumes that the Americans are on the offensive. The Militia Force, which is always on standby, will be used to slow down and delay any attacking force. The Mounted Rifles will probably come into contact first, as their horses grant them superior strategic mobility than the regular Militia. Their orders will be to skirmish with the advancing Americans, and slow them down however possible. As the frontline passes beyond the Militia's jurisdiction (their assigned area of defense, which primarily follows the borders with the US and Quebec), they will fade into the wilderness to form the core of new resistance battalions, fighting with guerilla tactics from behind enemy lines. Hopefully, the Militia Force will be able to slow down the Americans so that my own mechanized regular forces will be able to coordinate to meet the American attack and deliver a decisive counter-offensive.

I'm not sure, yet, if I should include the RCMP in the plans for creating a resistance behind enemy lines. Another idea I've played with is defensive works, using the principles of flexible defence-in-depth. I mean, contrary to popular belief, the Maginot Line was actually a very, very effective defensive line, the French just didn't build it long enough. However, nailing yourself to defensive positions surrenders the strategic initiative to the enemy.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The problem for you is that you are 3000 miles wide, but only 200 miles deep before you get run out of your best agricultural land and pinned up against a Boreal forest.  BC is semi-defensible, except that the valleys run north/south.  Forget a fixed defense in Alberta, Sask and Manitoba- you have no natural geographic feature to tie your defensive line to.  If the Americans come across here, they will cut your east/west lines of communication- unless you have a rail line running east/west north of Flin Flon/ Prince Albert/ Grand Prairie.  You had better have mobile forces in the paraires.  Don't stand on the 49th parallel and fight- you will get flanked and cut to pieces.  Keep several large mobile reserves and hit him hard on the flanks when he gets 60-70 miles over the border and try for an encirclement.

Better still- keep the Americans occupied on the Mason-Dixon by stirring up trouble- it puts pressure on Washington, which is very close to that neighbourhood.  Speaking of which- relocate your Capital from Ottawa to Churchill or Prince Albert- you cannot defend Ottawa properly with Quebec on the other side and only 60 miles to New York.

Can you form an alliance with Japan?  You know- oil for them and their very capable carrier fleet hanging around BC.  It might work.

 

[PrairieBoy]

'Officially' the capital is Ottawa, but most government work is being done in Prince Albert, with back-up locations in La Ronge and Churchill.

As for natural defensive features, I was thinking of tying lines across the prairies to the Saskatchewan River-Lake Winnipeg-Nelson River system. Unfortunately, that would leave all of Ontario, my industrial heartland, exposed to enemy capture. I think I might try a Tankograd solution, disassembling factories in Ontario and moving them to northern Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. However, that exposes them to flanking from Alaska, but at least it's a better spot.

If I can build up my forces enough, and keep the Americans distracted with the Confederates, I might just be able to seize the initiative and launch attacks of my own. A sweep through B.C. and the Yukon, and a grand-scale pincer manueuvre against Quebec, might just work. Audacious and daring, yes, but risky...

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

An interesting problem. I have a few questions:

a.  You mention your own forces and that the US has roughly three times as much, but do you have more information on the US forces strength and disposition?

b.  Is there any provision for the Commonwealth coming to your aid? If so, getting them to you would be a problem but Britain could at least pin down US forces.

c. Is there any hope of the Confederates joining with you? It doesn't seem right that the divided US would be united against Canada, but I guess I should fight the enemy and not the scenario.

If you are truly outnumbed by at least 3:1 and there is no real hope of any coming to your aid then at least you know what you are dealing with. It doesn't look good defensively. Poland built a strategy of tyring to hold out till non-contiguous allies could come and help. Go forward in time to 1939 and ask them how that turned out.I see two basic COAs:

1.  Defend.  :boring:

Dig in and hope that the enemy runs out of troops before you do. Who knows, you might roll lots of sixes. Still, you don't have much depth and you could be carved up and digested piecemeal. You'll be tempted to defend everywhere with limited options to move laterally once the enemy gets going. I guess as long as you have a fast plane to get you and your team of female ninja bodyguards and non-typing secretary to your hidden fortress in PEI it is a workable if boring plan.

2.  Attack!!!!!!!!!  :tank2:

A pre-emptive attack down the Ohio River valley could harm his industry and also place you with options to go east or west with some defensible flanks along the way. Make him dance to your tune. Think of all the gold you could get at Ft Knox along the way!!!  A less risky attack could be into New York. Imagine the trail of burning US cities behind you, with streams of panicked refugees impeding US counter-moves.

Good hunting!

 

[PrairieBoy]

a: I never said that American troop levels were three times mine, I said that my forces had tripled in size from their WWI levels (CEF: 600,000 servicemen, my current CF: 1.8 million servicemen). However, they do have a considerable advantage in numbers, I appraise anywhere from 1.5 to 2 times as many troops as I have, plus a larger navy, though our air forces are about on par, though his has more strategic bombers than mine.

b: There are plans in place for British and Australian aid if the Americans cross the 49th Parallel, however with the British spending most of their time glaring daggers at the Germans, and the Australians worrying about the Japanese, I'm not sure whether those plans will come to fruition or not.

c: Manifest Destiny is equally strong in both the US and CSA. They basically view Canada as a political non-entity, they think Canada is a rich bed of natural resources, and nothing else. Plus the CSA doesn't want anything to do with me due to lingering resentment over the fact that the British sympathized with them during the 1st Civil War, but did nothing.


What I'm thinking, Tango2Bravo, is simultaneous attack and defence. The juiciest target for the Americans is the Prairie, all that open space to manoeuvre with their armoured divisions. Patton could slash through the Prairies and then swing to the east and go hell-for-leather for Ottawa. What I'm thinking is something unexpected: Stop them, or at least critically delay them with the Second and Third Canadian Armies in the West, and then send the First Canadian Army on a counter-offensive down the Eastern Seaboard. When the Americans swing back to defend Washington, I send the Second and Third Armies after them.

Alternatively, I could take the initiative myself with sweep through BC and the Yukon, which are technically supposed to be mine, but are occupied by the US. Simultaneously, I could launch a vast pincer movement against the Republic of Quebec, striking from Ontario and Labrador. If the Third Canadian Army, in Central Canada, could retreat, but keep the advancing Americans in contact with them, then the First and Second Canadian Armies could move to the south after they're finished in BC and Quebec, to cut off and encircle the American salient. Cannae on a vast scale.

Desperate, insane plans. So insane they just might work. 

 

[blacktriangle]

Can you form an alliance with Japan?  You know- oil for them and their very capable carrier fleet hanging around BC.  It might work.

I like this idea. Is there any way you could pursue this? Even if all you did was mount a defense while keeping strong trade/military ties with Japan. If Canada was too hard of a target, perhaps the Yank factions would look towards South America for resources like oil.

What about using the aforementioned unconventional forces to try and maintain a stalemate between the US and the Confeds? If one side starts to get the upper hand, send in resources to help out the under dog. Perpetuate the war down south without either side knowing? That way neither faction will be able to shift their sole focus to you.

Interesting stuff for sure though, so keep us updated.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

What I'm thinking, Tango2Bravo, is simultaneous attack and defence. The juiciest target for the Americans is the Prairie, all that open space to manoeuvre with their armoured divisions. Patton could slash through the Prairies and then swing to the east and go hell-for-leather for Ottawa. What I'm thinking is something unexpected: Stop them, or at least critically delay them with the Second and Third Canadian Armies in the West, and then send the First Canadian Army on a counter-offensive down the Eastern Seaboard. When the Americans swing back to defend Washington, I send the Second and Third Armies after them.

Alternatively, I could take the initiative myself with sweep through BC and the Yukon, which are technically supposed to be mine, but are occupied by the US. Simultaneously, I could launch a vast pincer movement against the Republic of Quebec, striking from Ontario and Labrador. If the Third Canadian Army, in Central Canada, could retreat, but keep the advancing Americans in contact with them, then the First and Second Canadian Armies could move to the south after they're finished in BC and Quebec, to cut off and encircle the American salient. Cannae on a vast scale.

Desperate, insane plans. So insane they just might work. 

Ah, seen on the force levels. They aren't quite as bad as I thought then, although you have a lot of ground to cover. I wouldn't count on help from off-shore. Perhaps the CSA forces can at least tie US forces down. If I were the CSA I'd sell the US out and deal with you some other time.

Regarding your attack and defend plan, what if the US forces don't play the part you have cast for them? The Japanese in WW2 were fond of plans that seemed to rely on the US doing exactly what the Japanese expected them to do. With all your forces committed you might run into a crisis on either wing (or the centre if he strikes there) and not be able to recover. Still, looks like fun, and not knowing the rules my concerns may be moot.

Your situation is a bit like the French at the start of WW2 (and WW1 in some ways) in that you face a superior enemy who seems to be able to commit most of his forces against you. I'd think about keeping a good-sized reserve to prevent a set-back leading to disaster.

Have fun!

As an aside how does the game handle troop movements over these distances?

 

[PrairieBoy]

I'm going to try to raise a Fourth Canadian Army, to act as a strategic-level mobile reserve. The French are a good historical lesson on what not to do in this situation. The main problem, I find, is that I don't have enough strategic depth. In 1940, the British could retreat back to the British Isles across the Channel, their island acted as strategic depth. In 1941, Russia could always just retreat from the Germans, the vast size of their country was their strategic depth. In 1940, France had nowhere to go, no strategic depth, once the Germans punctured their front lines, they had a more or less open road straight to Paris. I have a similar problem; Sure, Canada is huge, but it is far wider than deep, and like it's been said: I can only retreat for about 200 miles or so before I run out of farmland to keep my people fed.

As for how movements are handled: Each subdivision of your country (provinces in Canada, states in America) is divided up into regions. Depending on the terrain, climate type, and mobility of your unit, it can take anywhere from six hours to three days for a regiment to move from one region to another (that's real hours and days, not in-game hours and days). Obviously, flat, open terrain allows you to move faster than hills or mountains. Mild, temperate weather also allows quicker movement than deserts or tunrda. As for mobility, there are five types: Foot, Mounted, Motorized, Mechanized and Airborne. Foot, Mounted and Airborne are, of course, self-explanatory. Motorized refers to units being transported to battle by trucks or armoured cars, while Mechanized means they are brought to battle in halftracks or APCs. My Army has the following mobility types:

Militia Regiments - Foot
Mounted Rifle Regiments - Mounted
Infantry Regiments - Motorized
Highlander Regiments - Mechanized
Guards Regiments - Mechanized
Parachute Regiments - Airborne

 

[mellian]

This sounds like a combination of Harry Turtledove's Timeline-191 series of books and Hearts of Iron games where one can play such scenarios.

If USA and CSA are at war with each other, USA will be distracted and would depend more on invading what is left of Canada quickly.

If base on Timeline-191, many in Quebec are not fond of relations with USA either, so espionage potential there as well.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Hmm.

Your situation is actually worse than France, in that a single short thrust at Winnipeg pretty much bisects your country.

Looking back to France though, it is intereting to look at 1914. The French Plan 17 was a disaster for the soldiers involved, but the threat posed by their offensive in the Lorraine did draw off German troops from the main effort through Belgium that might have tipped the balance in Germany's favour. The French were also able to deploy strong reserves against exhausted German troops at the Marne in 1914, thus staving off disaster. So, a spoiling attack coupled with a strong reserve might be a viable COA.

In 1940, the French not only followed the German plan to a tee (by sending their best into Belgium to respond to the feint there), when the rupture came at the Ardennes they had no capability to react. Chuchill asked the French leader where his strategic reserve was, and the answer was that there was none.

Do you have real people playing Australia and Great Britain? Can they give you a timeline?

 

[mariomike]

1. The Confederates won the American Civil War, splitting the US in two.

Is there still slavery in the South? How about starting an armed slave revolt like John Brown attempted at Harper's Ferry? Could this spark Civil War Two?

 

[PrairieBoy]

Mariomike: Civil War 2 has already happened. And 3, and 4. The US and CSA are always going to war at regular intervals, each trying to crush the other, much like Israel and the Arab states in the Middle East.

Tango2Brave: I could use that fact about Winnipeg to my advantage. If I turn it into a fortress of sorts, I could lure the Americans into a sort of... reverse Verdun. Trickling in just enough reinforcements to keep Winnipeg standing, I could force the Americans to devote more and more divisions to attacking it, turning it into a meatgrinder which wears down American numbers and morale. Problem is: the Red River runs North-South, not East-West.

And a situational update: The US is moving armoured divisions to Montana and North Dakota, they claim to be on training exercises, but who knows? The CSA matches their movement by sending their own armoured forces to New Mexico, Northern Texas and Okhlahoma.

Construction has begun on a series of strategic airlift planes, which I'll be able to convert to heavy bombers if necessary. It's a makeshift solution to the bomber problem, but at least it is something. And I've begun plans and a recruiting drive to try to raise a Fourth Canadian Army, which I'll probably station in NWT or Northern Saskatchewan/Manitoba, to act as a strategic reserve, or block American flanking movements through Alaska.

 

[mellian]

The timeline PrairieBoy mostly describing is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline-191, but most of Canada not being occupied in World War One.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Does Hoover Dam exist?  Who owns it?  Try to destroy it, doesn't matter if you succeed or not.  Blow massive holes in the New Orleans levee system, or again, attempt to.  Have subs?  Destroy the Panama Canal locks and pin it on the Chinese, Japanese, Russians... anyone you like.  Dam up the Red River.

 

[a_majoor]

Part of your problems might be solved by offering to become allies with the CSA or the Union (point out the corresponding movements of the Union and Confederate armies to make them start looking over their shoulders). Nothing like a little "black" diplomacy to muddy the waters.

The size and scope of the Canadian Army seems a bit disproportionate compared to historical population and economic trends, but then again, it is a game  ;D. As an outside observer (and rooted in the Canadian history of this universe) I would almost think these Canadian "armies" look great on paper but are rather hollow formations and not actually capable of doing what you want (in particular the wide mobile thrusts, which were theorized in the 1920's by Tukhachevskii and his circle but not physically possible until the 1940's and only reached their perfection in the 1991 Persian Gulf War). If you must make a huge mobile thrust consider creating a formation something like the Red Army's "1st Cavalry Army"

Some variation of Defence Scheme No. 1 probably has the greatest chance of success, having limited aims, not utilizing too much of your manpower and (if used as a spoiling attack) throwing the enemy off balance to buy you time (especially if you are destroying transportation infrastructure on the way out).

Even if the historical background is different, a study of "War Plan Red" (the hypothetical invasion of Canada by the United States drafted in 1930) might give you some insight of how the American forces might proceed should war break out.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Tango2Brave: I could use that fact about Winnipeg to my advantage. If I turn it into a fortress of sorts, I could lure the Americans into a sort of... reverse Verdun. Trickling in just enough reinforcements to keep Winnipeg standing, I could force the Americans to devote more and more divisions to attacking it, turning it into a meatgrinder which wears down American numbers and morale. Problem is: the Red River runs North-South, not East-West.

The North-South nature of the Red River is actually an advantage for you.  Up until WW2, steam ships ran regular runs on the Red River into Lake Winnipeg.  Fortifying and defending Winnipeg as a "fortress" city, while keeping it resupplied from the North is actually a viable option.  Use steam ships in the summer.  In the winter, you can run trucks on ice roads.

I want to comment on another thought that you had about  the Americans- there is about a 0% chance that Patton could attack into the prairie provinces and then hook right into Ontario.  You would tie him up for decades north of Lake Superior with almost no cost in troops to you- the terrain is far too rough for an attacker.  If Patton wants Ontario, he will cross the St Lawrence or the Detroit and get you that way (probably both simultaneously).  Without know much more about your scenario, this is probably your Enemy "Most Likely-Most Dangerous" Course of Action.  If you lose Ontario- you are hooped.    I would watch for something between Kingston and Cornwall, aimed at Ottawa and Left Hooking to pincer Toronto while simultaneously crossing around Windsor or maybe Sarnia and moving East to Toronto.

 

[PrairieBoy]

Thucydides: This is an alternate history, in which Canada's population is greater due to increased immigration (the US and CSA were constantly ravaging each other with war, so Canada was a much more attractive prospect to immigrants). Additionally, Canada managed to recover from the Great Depression earlier than other countries, due to public works projects, plus the profits of being an energy exporter, as well as mining, oil and gas extraction. Canada is much like Germany of the 1930s: We've taken some body blows, but we're still strongly in the fight. And, having endured the humiliation of invasion and foreign occupation, Canada has become a much more militarized state.

As for making Winnipeg into a fortress city; I think I might do it. The Winnipeg way is, by far, the easier way around Lake Winnipeg, the northern route being hilly, rocky and heavily forested (if my knowledge of Manitoban geography is correct). It could be like a Canadian Verdun or Stalingrad. The Mincing Machine of Winnipeg. The Meat Grinder of Winnipeg. Ils ne passeront pas! Not a step back! There is no land behind the Assiniboine!  ;D

 

[mariomike]

Does Hoover Dam exist?  Who owns it?  Try to destroy it, doesn't matter if you succeed or not.  Blow massive holes in the New Orleans levee system, or again, attempt to.  Have subs?  Destroy the Panama Canal locks and pin it on the Chinese, Japanese, Russians... anyone you like.  Dam up the Red River.

Hoover Dam was completed 1 March 1936. It might have taken something like a "Dambusters" raid to damage it.
In 1927 the Levee system failed in 145 places. Many people were displaced. Local people had to patrol their levee's, because intruders from other areas would attempt to destroy them, to take flood pressure off their own levees.

 

[a_majoor]

Well, this is the alternative universe...

On a meta level, you need some outside help. Given the world situation you describe, is it possible to entice Imperial Japan into some sort of arrangement via trade? The Union and CSA will have to shift forces to the west coast if Japanese naval power appears off the coast or the threat of incursions rises. Best case for you is the Union or CSA is forced to activate War Plan Orange and engage Imperial Japan instead of you.

On the Strategic level, our Canada had a whole series of East-West rail links from Confederation until the great depression (CN, CP, Grand Trunk Railway, the Port Arthur, Duluth and Western Railway etc.) Assuming these lines exist in your scenario, you have a means to shuttle forces rapidly east to west and back again. This somewhat offsets the lack of geographic features to anchor any Western defence lines, but turns the Praries into the "War of the Trains". As noted, American and Canadian forces can make broad manouevres in the West, but will eventually be stopped north of Lake Superior by the Canadian Sheild. (Are there naval or transport units in the Great Lakes?). There will need to be some sort of defence line to protect the railway entrances into the praries, otherwise the invaders may be able to use captured rail lines to invade Ontario from the North West.

Operationally, defending Ontario will be difficult. You may have to find ways to canalize the invading forces into separate columns and defeat them in detail (the Finns did a great job against the Red Army during the Winter War using this tactic, and that is essentially how the War of 1812 was fought). I am a bit unclear why the invading Americans would want to beseige Winnipeg, they may just choose to cut it off and let it wither on the vine. Be prepared for that eventuality and be able to evacuate the forces deployed there. To make Winnipeg much harder to attack (although at a great price) build a dam across the Red River south of the city and flood the province. Even if the Red River simply becomes much wider and swampier, it will still inhibit movement both along the river and across it.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Destroying and holding Winnipeg is desirable from a US point of view because in 1936 (as is the case today) it is a rail nexus for everything running east-west in Canada, plus having the connection south to Chicago and points beyond.  If you hold Winnipeg, it cleaves Canada in two and forces the building of a new east-west line North of Lake Winnipeg.  Good luck doing that in anything like a meaningful time scale.

The Dam on the Red River might work (assuming the scenario allows such things).  If the Americans go east of the Red River valley towards Steinbach, you have them neatly trapped in a pocket with no way out, except through Winnipeg.  If they go west, they will have to force a crossing on the Assiniboine- granted not a huge obstacle, but it is the best you've got in this part of the world.  Set the dam 20-30 miles south of Winnipeg- most of the flood damage will occur in North Dakota that way.