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Suicides

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17thRecceSgt

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GO!!! said:
-being a crusty army NCO with stalker tendencies who likes to bully troops on naval bases, probably due to a lack of work.

Do you know anyone who could help me learn these things?  :-*

Enforcing rules/regulations isn't bullying.  Its the job of an NCO.  Hopefully you realize that before they zap a leaf on your current rank.

I guess you let your Privates just "do what they want"?

But back on track...

If you "disagree" with the statistics, how about actually DIS-PROVING them with some other stats, facts or something relevant? 

Like I said... :boring:

Man, I wish I knew it all when I was a Cpl, like you do!
 

rogsco

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I think it has been established here and in other places that the press reports on the sensational, not the mundane. The press is the last source one should use for statistical or research evidence. They don't do a great job of reporting the whole story when it comes to research. Here is something in context from the CF Health & Lifestyle Information Survey (2004) .

The HLIS as a measurement tool has been validated by similar results from a StatsCan CF Mental Health Survey. As for the huge increase in PTSD rates, the HLIS indicates that military members are more than twice as likely than the civilian population to make use of mental health care professionals, which could at least partially explain the numbers (more use = more reporting).

The HLIS 2004 found that approximately 8% of CF members have ever seriously considered taking their own life and 3% have considered it in the past 12 months. The lifetime rate is roughly half that found in the CF Supplement to the Canadian Community Health Survey 2002 while the one year rate is comparable. The CF Supplement, also known as the DND Mental Health Survey, is probably a more valid measurement in this area because its response rate was higher. The CF Supplement results were not significantly different from the general Canadian population results. It should be noted that the questions on the HLIS and Mental Health Survey are similar but not identical, and the area of the survey in which they are asked is different. It is thus reasonable to conclude that the HLIS results can be compared to future HLIS results, but cannot validly be compared to the general Canadian population health surveys.

Lifetime suicidal ideation is higher among Francophones as is the case with the general Canadian population. Lifetime suicidal ideation is highest among the sea element at 11% and lowest for the land element at 7%. Suicidal ideation is higher among females, decreases as education increases, and is least likely among those married or living common-law. Lifetime suicidal ideation is lower among those 40 years of age and older. Less than 1% of CF members report having ever attempted suicide.

All that being said, if you need help dealing, tell someone.
 

Berenguei

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Hey bros,

If I'm not mistaken, that article in the Journal de Montréal was based on the findings of the CF ombudsman.
 

KevinB

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Mud Recce Man said:
If you "disagree" with the statistics, how about actually DIS-PROVING them with some other stats, facts or something relevant? 

Like I said... :boring:

Man, I wish I knew it all when I was a Cpl, like you do!

Slagging on GO!!! for bringing some perspective to the issue that you dont like, does not dimish he has some valid points.

 

the 48th regulator

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Infidel-6 said:
Slagging on GO!!! for bringing some perspective to the issue that you dont like, does not dimish he has some valid points.

What are they? That we should revert back to the old ways of hiding people who are suffering?  We finally make a step to aid those who need it and we now criticize it as being some sort of hidden agenda by an ever growing psychiatric medicine arm within the CF..

I would like to be presented with the valid points, with justification, to his argument and your defence of it.

dileas

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KevinB

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Tess -- a number of people that the CF designated as suicidal - have completed live fire ranges or been jumping.
Since they had a number of chances to guarantee their death -- I would say that while they may be depressed that they where not suicidal...

Similarily the CF seems to class people that have an alcohol related incident (not surprising for young troops) as alcohol dependant -- significantly this was when the base drug alcohol counsellors where running the ARC programs.

I dont have any stats - but as others have pointed out you can skew stats anyway you wish - since those are my personal observations from wearing the uniform for over 15 years both reg and reserve.

Lastly - Cpl's are in a unique position to offer insights -- since they directly deal with the Pte's yet are not co-opted by the system into worrying about careers etc.  ;)
 

the 48th regulator

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Brother,

C'mon now.  The people that the CF designated as suicidal have completed live fire ranges or been jumping.  These people are not incompetent to the point of not being able to to their job, suicidal tendencies do not make you want to give up what you do in life, they make you want to live.  The actions you present may be the parts of life they actually enjoy, and you will not see the suicidal side in them when the do those actions.  In fact t you see the opposite.

The CF seems to class people that have an alcohol related incident (not surprising for young troops) as alcohol dependant.  Fair enough, but take a guy who has been in a while, has gone overseas, and experienced a tough go, I would like to have an eye on him if he is abusing it.  It may be a matter of venting and decompression, however, it could be the other way.  Again, as GO and I have stated previously, it is better to recognize the problem, and then find a solution to get the troop back on track to the way he was so he can soldier again.

Lastly - Cpl's are in a unique position to offer insights -- since they directly deal with the Pte's yet are not co-opted by the system into worrying about careers etc. 

The best position (in fact the best rank within the military...but I digress)!  However, we are talking the military as a whole.  Who will take care of the Sergeant, the Platoon WO., or the Company commander who has to resolve the fact that they have experienced loss off people closer to him than his own mother??

I take this personally, as you know, because I am one who fell through the wide "Cracks" of our beloved system.  Now we finally get it on track and we criticize it?  Dunno.


dileas

tess



 

KevinB

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tess -- I hear you.

When I left the CF they wanted me to seek counselling for PTSD ( I had solved my PTSD issues a long time ago) but the issue was anger with a few superiors - not related to PTSD at all.

 

the 48th regulator

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but the issue was anger with a few superiors - not related to PTSD at all

Dude,

You obviously used professional help to solve your disorder, correct? However, you would agree one of the symptoms of PTSD is anger, and when you have demonstrated that you have had PTSD previously, and then have anger to multiple superiors, what assessment would you make?

I am not trying to pick on you, or GO for that matter, but we have to clarify the statement, as opposed to firing off eye candy shots at the establishment.

dileas

tess

 

KevinB

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I legitimately dislike and have anger at a few people in the CF.

IF the CF put more effort into preparing the warfighter - they would have less issues with PSTD.
 

the 48th regulator

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Agreed, to an extent.

If the CF followed up properly, after an incident, they would have absolutely no issues with PTSD.

The big poison that affects troops is how they are treated after any type of situation.  If not addressed properly, and immediately, then the wound can fester and developed into PTSD.  If treated, like any other type of physical wound, the troop can jump back into the swing of things.

PTSD is no different than an infection.  You can take all the shots you want to prevent it, but proper hygiene and follow up is what will prevent it.

Same thing for the mind.

dileas

tess
 
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17thRecceSgt

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Infidel-6 said:
Slagging on GO!!! for bringing some perspective to the issue that you dont like, does not dimish he has some valid points.

Sure, if you accept it with no factual data, or anything to counter the data presented.  GO!!! does enough slaggin on his own, surely he can handle some of his own medicine for a change.

 
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17thRecceSgt

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Infidel-6 said:
Tess -- a number of people that the CF designated as suicidal - have completed live fire ranges or been jumping.
Since they had a number of chances to guarantee their death -- I would say that while they may be depressed that they where not suicidal...

Similarily the CF seems to class people that have an alcohol related incident (not surprising for young troops) as alcohol dependant -- significantly this was when the base drug alcohol counsellors where running the ARC programs.

I dont have any stats - but as others have pointed out you can skew stats anyway you wish - since those are my personal observations from wearing the uniform for over 15 years both reg and reserve.

Lastly - Cpl's are in a unique position to offer insights -- since they directly deal with the Pte's yet are not co-opted by the system into worrying about careers etc.  ;)
 
1

17thRecceSgt

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Infidel-6 said:
Tess -- a number of people that the CF designated as suicidal - have completed live fire ranges or been jumping.
Since they had a number of chances to guarantee their death -- I would say that while they may be depressed that they where not suicidal...

Anything to back that statement up?  I have done both, don't recall anyone talking to be about being suicidal.

While I do agree that Cpl's have the closet working relationship with Pte's for the most part, I disagree with the comment that makes it look like MCpl's and above are clueless because they are to focused on their careers.  Sure, SOME are, but only some.  I guess in those situations, the team isn't working as per, and thats too bad.  I see lots of it where I work, and that makes me all the more determined to not let that happen to me, and my couple of guys that I have under me.  

Regardless, overall the point of this thread points to stats' from research, surveys, whatever they got the info from and what I am saying to the na-sayers is DIS-PROVE it with other factual data.

I don't think slamming the CF Medical Services for "this being a make-work" project is the way to dis-prove it either, to me that discredits your opinion, unless you work with or have worked with these people and have personally witnessed it.  I would also say the same thing to anyone who posted that the Combat Arms were 31 flavours of f#$ked up, if they were Medical type people and had never worked with, or didn't understand the requirements of, the tactics, mindset, etc of Combat Arms types.

So for me, 2 points.  1.  Disprove it if it is wrong or incorrect.  2.  Quit the VD on the subject for lack of the ability to do Point #1.  ;)



 

GO!!!

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Mud Recce Man said:
Anything to back that statement up?  I have done both, don't recall anyone talking to be about being suicidal.
I have. One individual informed several members of the platoon of his desire (including me) - it still took a month or two for him to recieve effective treatment. And yes, before you start, we passed it up and he did recieve some care.

While I do agree that Cpl's have the closet working relationship with Pte's for the most part, I disagree with the comment that makes it look like MCpl's and above are clueless because they are to focused on their careers.  Sure, SOME are, but only some.  I guess in those situations, the team isn't working as per, and thats too bad.  I see lots of it where I work, and that makes me all the more determined to not let that happen to me, and my couple of guys that I have under me.  
I'd take it a step further. MCpl is an extraordinarily hard rank to be; not quite an NCO and not quite a troop either. MCpl's are often second guessed and this hampers their ability to force change. As a result, I see them either overreacting "confiscate that man's weapon, post a guard" or underreacting "Oh, I'm sure he'll be fine".

I don't think slamming the CF Medical Services for "this being a make-work" project is the way to dis-prove it either, to me that discredits your opinion, unless you work with or have worked with these people and have personally witnessed it.  I would also say the same thing to anyone who posted that the Combat Arms were 31 flavours of f#$ked up, if they were Medical type people and had never worked with, or didn't understand the requirements of, the tactics, mindset, etc of Combat Arms types.
I've worked within the system and witnessed a few close friends do it as well.

1) Excellent Sr. Cpl with several deployments and a sleeping disorder seeks help. CF Psycho Services diagnoses him, and promptly prescribes him a drug. A month later, a notice of Permanent Category shows up at unit, stating that Cpl X can never be deployed again as he requires prescription meds. The individual in question was never told about the consequences of this prescription or the reasoning behind it, or any alternative treatment.
End result? Mbr Releases, as there is no hope of deploying again, and promotional opportunities are limited, and must seek treatment from civilian MH pros on his own dime. They clear the problem up in a year.

2) Junior Pte. Develops (or joined with) alcohol problem and severe depression. Has a number of disciplinary problems and is eventually sent to counselling. Mbr gets steadily worse while attending numerous appointments and taking prescription drugs with severe side effects until he elects not to renew his BE.
End result? Mbr releases, untreated.

3) Cpl is badly injured in work related accident, and after 2 months convalescence, suffers severe depression and maritial problems for which he seeks assistance. CF MH gives him no fewer than 4 prescriptions simultaneously for "mood improvement". Mbr has "adverse" reactions to drugs, discontinues them and seeks help from civilian MH on own dime. Treatment effective, mbr returns to work. CF MH accuses mbr of exagerrating origional symptoms, threatens disciplinary actions.
End result? Mbr wishes he'd paid for the civy help in the first place.

In all of the above cases, the CF Psycho services (their name, not mine) reacted to symptoms with maximal application of powerful prescription drugs and minimal use of counselling. None of the above will ever use military MH again, and countless more are scared off of it because of these  cases.


 

rogsco

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GO,

Troublesome cases indeed. Let me state my bias up front: I am a health care provider (not mental health) with many years of experience with both the CF and civilian health care systems. Mental health is a challenging clinical area. Your four cases of second-hand, one-sided accounts are anecdotal and don't shed much evidence of a "psycho system" that is failing. By, the way, I think you will find the term is CF Mental Health Services not CF Psycho Services.

It is not unusual for a patient to be served by more than one MH care provider in either the civilian or military setting (or combination). Mental Health care is often multi-disciplinary  as is the case in the CF with psychiatrists, psychologists, mental health nurses, social workers, and chaplains (when appropriate) being involved. Relapses are not uncommon and sometimes more than one approach to treatment is necessary for success. Patients may also find that they have a better therapeutic relationship with one provider over another.

The problem I have with your accounts is that they seem to villainize the CF system and suggest the civilian system is without flaw. I can find you lot's of examples of problems with the civilian system as well.  I also take issue with your account of the CF MH system recommending or attempting to discipline a patient. All I can say to that, without seeing a case file and hearing the first hand account of the member, is that it is highly suspect at best and BS at worst. It is not the role of a CF health care provider to discipline a patient. I would suggest that to do so would violate professional codes of ethics.

PCATs are rarely issued without going through the TCAT process first to see if a condition will be self-limiting or amenable to treatment. If a PCAT arrived within a month, I have to say the system was working remarkably well, I have never seen one processed that quickly - they tend to take months to years. Seems suspect.

Alcohol addiction is one of the most difficult things to treat. Couple it with depression and treatment can be even more complex. Relapses and treatment failures are common in treating alcohol addiction in the CF and in the civilian world. I don't see how this Pte's choice to leave the CF is a failure of the CF MH system. I wonder if he was treated successfully after leaving?

Treatment regimes will generally include a mix of pharmacological and non-pharmacological measures. All anti-depressants have side effects (the most troublesome to patients often being sexual side effects) Patients need to discuss treatment options with their care providers. Mental health care is a directive "I am the professional, you are the patient, do as I say" field of endeavour. Nobody can be forced to participate in treatment they don't want (ok, unless they have been declared a danger to themselves or others and ordered into treatment under a mental health law).

Its really a shame these members feel that CF MH services failed them, but four second-hand cases lacking in detail should not be used to serve as an indictment of a system that is helping many people.

 

GO!!!

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rogsco,

I fully support your assertation that there may be some inconsistencies in these accounts. All are anecdotal, and have been treated to the "Private Pipeline" which tends to sensationalise in a manner the media can only dream about.

The "discipline" I've heard about from the medical side is limited to being ordered to take your meds - I've never heard of anyone charged for it though.

The individual who was precluded from deployment came up so quickly at the PCAT because he was DAG-ing. He was given an unpleasant surprise when he DAG- ged red - due to his meds with no prior warning.

I have advocated certain parts of the CF mental health system before - the MAP (Member Assistance Program) is a confidential method of seeking mental health that seems to get high marks from soldiers I know that have used it, lest I be seen as too negative!

 

rogsco

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Thanks for the follow up GO. Its good to know that you are involved in the MAP. That is an important part of CF MH, since as you know as a participant in MAP, that there is still stigma attached to mental health concerns in the military and in the civilian world. Its is critical that soldiers feel there is someone they can trust to just listen or to help them connect with help.
 

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I just wanted to clarify something with you all...  My wonderful husband is slated to be home from an Afghanistan tour in a few short weeks, the CF rear party has organized a meeting with CF MH for the wives before their return.  We, the wives, have been told to contact them if we see concerning behavior before it gets out of hand.  Would you agree with this idea or am I to believe that this isn't a good idea?
 

GO!!!

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cplwife said:
I just wanted to clarify something with you all...  My wonderful husband is slated to be home from an Afghanistan tour in a few short weeks, the CF rear party has organized a meeting with CF MH for the wives before their return.  We, the wives, have been told to contact them if we see concerning behavior before it gets out of hand.  Would you agree with this idea or am I to believe that this isn't a good idea?

Contacting CF MH can, but not necessarily will, have career repercussions for a soldier. Nobody wants to be saddled with a the "crazy train" moniker. Nothing gets around faster than rumours that Cpl Bloggins was sitting in the Garrison Psycho Services waiting room for some reason.

There is confidential mental health help available to CF members through the Member Assistance Program. This is funded by the CF, but patients are treated by civilian MH professionals in off - base facilities. Further info;
http://www.dnd.ca/health/services/engraph/member_assist_program_home_e.asp

Finally, don't keep the army on speed dial. Many of the "problems" that soldiers experience post - deployment can be ironed out with a supportive significant other, a pleasant home life and time.

 
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