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Syria Superthread [merged]

Thucydides said:
57, I am most of the readers here are aware of what he said, but he chose those words to weasle out of admitting he had indeed used the term "red line": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxxwfaIAl_Q


Since he is indeed on record as saying those words (and implying swift action once the "red line" was crossed), then it is his credibility on the line.

The world is simply standing by and watching with interest.....

Well honestly I can't give out cookies and gold stars for that.
Canada and everybody else in the West created a special category for WMDs and spoke out against proliferation and their use very strongly... just luckily nobody was using them at the time.

Without praising Obama but....

This is not unlike everyone loudly denouncing domestic violence and crowing about how brilliantly noble and good we are to denounce it. Jolly good powerpoints all around!
But when Stephen, Barack, David and Vlad all witness the guy slap his wife... suddenly we realize how little good we can do by getting involved because well, she seemed kind of unsavoury too and really punching the guy out is not going to lead to matrimonial bliss....
And so it's only Obama standing in front of him, secretly wishing he'd never yelled across the room "don't you dare do that!"
And we nurse our beer and watch.

Hardly moral high ground or brilliant strategic policy IMHO.
 
RoyalDrew said:
It is a soup sandwich... Looking back on the past few years I am finding it very comical that Obama was awarded a Nobel Peace Prize a few years ago  ;D is no institution sacred anymore.

The hawks want to strike but the bomb bank is empty


I would argue that the Nobel Peace prize has become a bad, sad, partisan political joke. The debasement began in 1973 when Henry Kissinger and Le Duc Tho were awarded the prize, jointly, for doing their jobs ~ but the Viet Name war was so unpopular in Europe that the committe tossed aside its standards to appease public opinion. They did it, again and again: Anwar Sadat and Menachem Begin in 1978; Yasser Arafat, Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin in 1984, again for doing their jobs; John Hume and David Trimble in 1998; Jimmy Carter in 2002; Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and Al Gore in 2007 ~ tied for the second worst prize awarded; of course, President Obama in 2009, awarded just to thumb Europe's collective nose a George W Bush; and The European Union in 2012, also in the second worst place tie. In the better eras: 1950 and 1960s, it was common and very sensible to not award a Peace Prize at all; that should be the case in the early years of the 21st century, but as the Obama award shows, it is more important to appease the European left than to give some serious consideration to who should joint the likes of Elihu Root, Robert Cecil, Albert Schweitzer, George C Marshall, Lester B Pearson, Willy Brandt, Nelson Mandela and Aung San Suu Kyi as real Nobel Peace Prize laureates.

 
Where "Smart Diplomacy" meets the WTF? file. The Administration hoped to strip away Russia and Iran from supporting Syria? I guess the "smart" people have never heard of the dictum of nations having permanent interests, or considered why Russia and Iran saw Syria as a partner in the first place. Of course the idea that Iran is pouring vast quantities of resources in developing WMD of its own seems to have escaped them as well:

http://washingtonexaminer.com/obama-team-thought-iran-would-not-tolerate-assads-use-of-wmds/article/2535328

Obama team thought Iran would not tolerate Bashar Assad's use of WMDs
BY JOEL GEHRKE | SEPTEMBER 6, 2013 AT 4:10 PM

US United Nations Ambassador Samantha Power speaks about Syria, Friday, Sept. 6, at the Center...\

Iran is enduring economic sanctions designed to slow the country's nuclear weapons program, but President Obama's team thought the regime might abandon dictator Bashar Assad over his use of chemical weapons in Syria's civil war.

Samantha Power, the U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, hoped that a team of UN investigators — many of whom, presumably, have a longstanding relationship with Iranian leaders -- could write a report that would convince Iran to abandon its ally at the behest of the United States.

"We worked with the UN to create a group of inspectors and then worked for more than six months to get them access to the country on the logic that perhaps the presence of an investigative team in the country might deter future attacks," Power said at the Center for American Progress as she made the case for intervening in Syria.

"Or, if not, at a minimum, we thought perhaps a shared evidentiary base could convince Russia or Iran — itself a victim of Saddam Hussein's monstrous chemical weapons attacks in 1987-1988 — to cast loose a regime that was gassing it's people," she said.

Rather than "cast loose" Assad after the latest chemical weapons attack, as the Obama team hoped, "Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Khamenei has warned the Obama administration against any proposed military strike on Syria," as the International Business Times reports.
 
Seems the French want to wait for the UN report on the chem. attacks before launching strikes.

Military.com link

France Backs off Support for Syrian Strike

Sep 07, 2013

Military.com| by Richard Sisk


France backed away Friday from joining the U.S. in swift military action against Syria, isolating President Obama even more as he threatens limited strikes on the Damascus regime for its alleged use of chemical weapons.

France had been the only nation to agree to the joint use of force with the U.S. against Syria, but French President Francois Hollande said he is now waiting for a report from United Nations weapons inspectors on whether chemical weapons were used in the Aug. 21 rocket attacks on the Damascus suburbs.

"We shall await the report of the inspectors just as we will await [the U.S.] Congress," Hollande said at a news conference in St. Petersburg, Russia, where he was attending an economic summit with Obama and other world leaders.


UN officials have said the report of the weapons inspectors may not be ready until October,
and they have stressed that the findings will only show whether chemical weapons were used, and not who was responsible. Russian President Vladimir Putin has repeatedly charged that rebel forces may have been to blame, and not the regime of President Bashar al-Assad.

Before President Obama's surprise announcement last Saturday that he would seek Congressional authorization for strikes on Syria, Hollande said that the French military would support U.S. action. France has Rafale and French Mirage 2000 fighters armed with SCALP cruise missiles that could have been used as standoff weapons in an attack coordinated with U.S. air and naval assets.

At a meeting with Hollande, Obama did not directly address the French change of course. Instead, Obama thanked Hollande for his general agreement "that the chemical weapons ban is a critical international norm, and that it needs to be enforced."

At his own news conference before leaving St. Petersburg, Obama said that he would address the nation on Tuesday night on his judgment that that the U.S. must act against Syria, even if traditional allies such as Britain and France have chosen to stay on the sidelines.
(...)
 
S.M.A. said:
France backed away Friday from joining the U.S. in swift military action against Syria....
Hmmm, France normally waits until the fighting starts before they wave the white flag......    :pop:
 
S.M.A. said:
France Backs off Support for Syrian Strike

Military.com link


BTfvnsmCEAEoowI.jpg

 
If this situation was a Shakespeare play, would it be a tragedy or a comedy?

This is truly amateur hour on the Potomac.  When Putin makes more sense than the Americam Secretary of State, you know it is a gong show in the making.
 
Haletown said:
If this situation was a Shakespeare play, would it be a tragedy or a comedy?

This is truly amateur hour on the Potomac.  When Putin makes more sense than the Americam Secretary of State, you know it is a gong show in the making.


But Putin doesn't make sense, not really. There is a case for punishing Syria: I posted a link, one page back, to Andrew Coyne's statement of the "pro" case; our own Foreign Minister, John Baird, has made the case, too.

The problem is that President Obama has given a master class in how not to develop and implement a strategy. And he's done that because he - and his staff - has forgotten the first Principle of War: Selection and maintenance of the AIM, the master principle. If you don't know what you want or need to accomplish then failure is almost guaranteed. President Obama and his team have an AIM, but it is not a strategic aim, it is a narrow, domestic, partisan political aim: "not to be mocked!" They are going to bomb a foreign country because if they don't the American media may laugh at them.

I have to repeat: I am not overly concerned about hundreds, thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dear Arabs ~ I pity the mothers and children of the victims, many of whom are, indeed, innocent, but I believe their deaths are part, maybe just a small part of the price of change in their world and I believe change is necessary. I hope it will be change for the better.

But there is a cogent, reasoned case for intervention ~ I don't accept it but I agree there is one.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
President Obama and his team have an AIM, but it is not a strategic aim, it is a narrow, domestic, partisan political aim: "not to be mocked!" They are going to bomb a foreign country because if they don't the American media may laugh at them.
I agree with this. The Western countries are regarded as the saviours or better yet, protectors around the globe. Be it the US, France , UK, Canada, Austrlia, New Zealand, Germany etc. THE WESTERN COUNTRIES When shit dropped in Rwanda, it was depicted as a War Crime, yet the Western Countries were blamed for doing nothing. No one blamed the Russians for sitting back. Obama just wnts to live up to his country's role; it is indeed the world that looks up to the western countries in time of need and support against aggressive dictators.
 
nn1988 said:
I agree with this. The Western countries are regarded as the saviours or better yet, protectors around the globe. Be it the US, France , UK, Canada, Austrlia, New Zealand, Germany etc. THE WESTERN COUNTRIES When crap dropped in Rwanda, it was depicted as a War Crime, yet the Western Countries were blamed for doing nothing. No one blamed the Russians for sitting back. Obama just wnts to live up to his country's role; it is indeed the world that looks up to the western countries in time of need and support against aggressive dictators.
I don't think you've been many places. I don't know of any foreign countries where they actually think that about us. It is a comforting fable we tell ourselves to make us feel good. It has no reality outside our borders.
 
Although not a dictator, but belligerent Russia was going to crush Georgia if the EU failed to act and start mediating.
 
We have interests, not friends. We want strategic leverage, not moral authority. The real politik is much more nuanced and less naive about countries motivations once you travel. We don't do things for humanitarian reasons unless we get something  out of it. That is just for the media at home.  You should go places and ask people what they really think about us. Get a few drinks in them and wow. America is almost universally hated now. Most think of Canada what we think of Greenland. Totally irrelevant.
 
Google Georgia missile defence. We were well paid for our "humanitarian" intervention.
 
Nemo888 said:
We have interests, not friends. We want strategic leverage, not moral authority. The real politik is much more nuanced and less naive about countries motivations once you travel. We don't do things for humanitarian reasons unless we get something  out of it. That is just for the media at home.  You should go places and ask people what they really think about us. Get a few drinks in them and wow. America is almost universally hated now. Most think of Canada what we think of Greenland. Totally irrelevant.

I am guessing this simply reaffirms my point that the US want to attack a foreign country largely to maintain international credibility. If shit goes down in Syria, Iran will be next; both allies of Russia. A strategical and financial strike. And I know, neither the US nor Russia give two shits about the civilians in any of these countries.
 
No one I know supports an attack on Syria.The best thing from the US standpoint would be to let both sides kill each other,until they exhaust themselves.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
...
But there is a cogent, reasoned case for intervention ~ I don't accept it but I agree there is one.


And here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from hte Guardian, is another reason argument for intervention:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/06/left-irrational-fear-us-intervention-syria?CMP=twt_gu
comment.gif

The left's irrational fear of American intervention
In Syria, as elsewhere, US military might is the best available means of preventing crimes against humanity

Niall Ferguson
The Guardian

Friday 6 September 2013

Not for the first time, human rights violations by a Middle Eastern tyrant pose a dilemma for leftists on both sides of the Atlantic. On the one hand, they don't like reading about people being gassed. On the other, they are deeply reluctant to will the means to end the killing, for fear of acknowledging that western – meaning, in practice, American – military power can be a force for good.

Ever since the 1990s, when the United States finally bestirred itself to end the post-Yugoslav violence in the Balkans, I have made three arguments that the left cannot abide. The first is that American military power is the best available means of preventing crimes against humanity. The second is that, unfortunately, the US is a reluctant "liberal empire" because of three deficits: of manpower, money and attention. And the third is that, when it retreats from global hegemony, we shall see more not less violence.

More recently, almost exactly year ago, I was lambasted for arguing that Barack Obama's principal weaknesses were a tendency to defer difficult decisions to Congress and a lack of coherent strategy in the Middle East. Events have confirmed the predictive power of all this analysis.

To the isolationists on both left and right, Obama's addiction to half- and quarter-measures is just fine – anything rather than risk "another Iraq". But such complacency (not to say callousness) understates the danger of the dynamics at work in the Middle East today. Just because the US is being led by the geopolitical equivalent of Hamlet doesn't mean stasis on the global stage. On the contrary, the less the US does, the more rapidly the region changes, as the various actors jostle for position in a post-American Middle East.

Syria today is in the process of being partitioned. Note that something similar has already happened in Iraq. What we are witnessing is not just the end of the Middle East of the 1970s. This could be the end of the Middle East of the 1920s. The borders of today, as is well known, can be traced back to the work of British and French diplomats during the first world war. The infamous Sykes-Picot agreement of 1916 was the first of a series of steps that led to the breakup of the Ottoman empire and the creation of the states we know today as Syria and Iraq, as well as Jordan, Lebanon and Israel.

As we approach the centenary of the outbreak of the first world war, there is no obvious reason why these states should all survive in their present form.

It is tempting to think of this as a re-Ottomanisation process, as the region reverts to its pre-1914 borders. But it may be more accurate to see this as a second Yugoslavia, with sectarian conflict leading to "ethnic cleansing" and a permanent redrawing of the maps. In the case of Bosnia and Kosovo, it took another Democrat US president an agonisingly long time to face up to the need for intervention. But he eventually did. I would not be surprised to see a repeat performance if that president's wife should end up succeeding Obama in the White House. After all, there is strong evidence to suggest Obama agreed to the original chemical weapons "red line" only under pressure from Hillary Clinton's state department.

Yet the president may not be able to sustain his brand of minimalist interventionism until 2016. While all eyes are focused on chemical weapons in Syria, the mullahs in Iran continue with their efforts to acquire nuclear weapons. The latest IAEA report on this subject makes for disturbing reading. I find it hard to believe that even the pusillanimous Obama would be able to ignore evidence that Tehran had crossed that red line, even if it was drawn by the Israeli prime minister rather than by him.

The Iranian factor is one of a number of key differences between the break up of Yugoslavia and the breakup of countries like Syria and Iraq.

The Middle East is not the Balkans. The population is larger, younger, poorer and less educated. The forces of radical Islam are far more powerful. It is impossible to identify a single "bad guy" in the way that Slobodan Milosevic became the west's bete noire. And there are multiple regional players – Iran, Turkey, the Saudis, as well as the Russians – with deep pockets and serious military capabilities. All in all, the end of pan-Arabism is a much scarier process than the end of pan-Slavism. And the longer the US dithers, the bigger the sectarian conflicts in the region are likely to become.

The proponents of non-intervention – or, indeed, of ineffectual intervention – need to face a simple reality. Inaction is a policy that also has consequences measurable in terms of human life. The assumption that there is nothing worse in the world than American empire is an article of leftwing faith. It is not supported by the historical record.


Now, I often agree with Prof Ferguson on a range of issues, but not this time.

First: it is not just "leftists" who oppose this intervention. The opposition is found all across the political spectrum; the left is largely united in both its opposition and its (unconvincing) rationale (one large "brick" in the left "wall" is missing: the Obama uber alles group) but opposition is broadly based, albeit inchoate;

Second: I do not think this is a Balkanization of the Middle East. I don't think Prof Ferguson is looking back far enough. He needs to look back four centuries, not one.

Third: while "inaction" does, indeed, have consequences ~ sad and bloody ones for the Syrian people ~ action has worse ones.
 
In the Toronto Star columnist Haroon Siddiqui makes a more emotional, less reasoned case for intervention. He is, mostly, wrong, but he does offer a neat summary of the Naysayers, Gung-ho Warriors and Reluctant Warriors who are circling the issue like vultures. His advice to Prime Minister Harper is 100% wrong ... but of course it is, he writes for the Star.
 
Maybe Mr. Siddiqui didn't read this piece on how to write for and against intervention  ;D ....
If you're anti-intervention, your headline should include the words "Iraq", "Imperialism", "Drones", "Islamophobia" and "Palestine". If you're pro-intervention, use the words, "Israel", "Iran", "Heinous" and "Not Iraq". “War”, "Humanity" and "Children" can be used by both sides.

Start with what you saw about Syria on television last week, or the week before. 

Note how you haven't slept for several nights since, thinking about what you saw --- it will beef up your credentials as a war weary non-Syrian. For research, it's bad form to read any writing from journalists who have been following Syria for nearly 3 years. There are shorter summaries, that use smaller words, written by people who are just learning themselves. Mention their work so it aligns with your own short-comings.

Explaining the complexities of life in war-torn Syria defeats the purpose of your article. Nuance is a friend of your enemy, no matter what side you're on. If you can’t convey the entire situation in a sentence, maybe this job isn’t for you.

Syria was a peaceful land, filled with rivers of honey and mountains of whipped cream before "all of this" happened. Or it was a giant desert, filled with camel-riding Arabs. Neither matters since your piece is not really about Syria. Never mention that its population is close to 23 million. Numbers only matter if they're about how many people died or were liberated in Iraq.

Be original and use the term "Arab Winter." Be brief, and don't linger on any topic for too long. It's boring and might expose gaps in your knowledge. Everybody else has forgotten that the US, UK and others recognize the Syrian opposition as the legitimate representative of the Syrian people, so you might as well too.

Don't explain the difference between Shia and Alawite in detail. It's like trying to explain the difference between fried rice and broiled corn to a cat. He won't eat it if he knows. If you’re Arab, emphasize that fact, since all Arabs are exactly alike and every Arab speaks for all Arabdom. Be sure to divide the entire population of Syria into "good guys" and "bad guys". Pretend the Kurds don't exist. It's easier to make your case that way and continues a long tradition.

Just use "al-Qaeda" as shorthand for Jabhat Al Nusra and the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. Of course, if you're anti-intervention, then just use "al-Qaeda" as shorthand for the Free Syrian Army. Throw in at least one outlandish claim about the rebels from a single, unverified source.

Mention the name of at least one Syrian friend you've had drinks with in Washington D.C. It bolsters your claim of having intimate knowledge of the situation. Even better, if you once spent a weekend in Aleppo or Damascus. Devote at least two paragraphs to how it transformed your life, even if you've never mentioned that before writing this article.

If you're pro-intervention, mention the words "Israel" and "security" several times. If you're against it, mention Iran and the various abuses it has had to suffer at the hands of the West. You're only peppering in Syria here and there to ensure that your journalistic integrity remains intact.

Treat the article as if it were a minimalist work of art.

If you're pro, don't mention Saudi Arabia, at any cost. Don’t talk about past US interventions unless the outcome was positive or too distant for the memory of your audience. If you're anti, the Bosnian, Kosovo or Libyan wars did NOT happen. You must state strongly how any external interference in Syria will make the situation worse, whilst pretending that Russia, Iran, Saudi, Lebanon, Turkey, US, UK, and half the world have sat on their hands and whistled since 2011.

Don’t talk to any actual Syrians. They will only complicate the argument. Use various tweets by @The_47th, @NuffSilence and @AlexanderPageSY out of context to hide the fact that your piece doesn’t include interviews and to appeal to your millennial readers who can't get enough of Twitter.

If anti-intervention, talk about US imperialism wherever possible. Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Palestine will do very nicely as examples. Don't bring up US interventions in Latin America. Your audience only knows about them if they're a die-hard Immortal Technique fan. To ensure everyone knows how deeply you feel the pain and suffering caused by the indiscriminate murder of huge numbers of civilians, add that you own a copy of Hotel Rwanda.

If pro-intervention, demonstrate your credibility by saying "I was against the Iraq war, but the situation in Syria is different and demands ‘humanitarian intervention’”. Hopefully nobody will ask you about the Democratic Republic of Congo or Sudan in the comments.

For maximum impact, use a photo of either dead children or a jihadist committing an atrocity. The more emotions the image stirs, the less you have to worry about the quality of your argument. Don't consult multiple sources and experts on the chemical weapons claims. Just find the one which supports your position the strongest and stick with it.

Exploit the refugees. Either criticize the West for not doing enough to help, or hammer home the fact that Assad has created over 2 million. Avoid writing about Syria's massive rape crisis. Women in war only matter when they’ve lost a man from their family.

When sharing your article on social media, tweet something like "I give my thoughts on the Syria debate", because although this isn't about you, there's always the chance that an editor might ask you to write another piece or do a TV interview. Intervention debates can be great for a journalist's career.

Your last paragraph should include something about Obama lacking a spine or George Bush being a cowboy. Conclude with how you're only doing this so you can sleep better at night or be on the right side of history, since those are the only outcomes of this war that truly matter.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
In the Toronto Star columnist Haroon Siddiqui makes a more emotional, less reasoned case for intervention. He is, mostly, wrong, but he does offer a neat summary of the Naysayers, Gung-ho Warriors and Reluctant Warriors who are circling the issue like vultures. His advice to Prime Minister Harper is 100% wrong ... but of course it is, he writes for the Star.

Well to add balance to your Sunday reading go over to the G&M for an excellent interview with Margaret MacMillan, the award-winning historian and author of the international bestseller Paris 1919.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/historian-margaret-macmillan-on-what-the-war-to-end-wars-can-teach-us/article14174144/#dashboard/follows/
 
Syrian warplanes test British air defences at Cyprus: what's the point of the Syrians doing this considering the UK has already decided to sit this one out?

Mirror link

Syrian warplanes flee after testing defences at British air base in Cyprus
  8 Sep 2013 00:00     

Bombers had refused to respond to repeated attempts by the control tower at the UK’s Akrotiri air base to make radio contact


RAF Typhoon fighters won a mid-air showdown with two Syrian warplanes heading towards Britain’s main base in Cyprus, the Sunday People can ­reveal.

The dramatic confrontation came after President Bashar al-Assad’s air chiefs sent two Russian-made Sukhoi Su-24s to probe our air defences.

The Syrian bombers refused to respond to repeated attempts by the control tower at the UK’s Akrotiri air base to contact them.

RAF pilots flying the world’s most advanced combat jet were scrambled before the Sukhois could enter our 14-mile air exclusion zone.

The Typhoons – which can scream from runway standstill to seven miles high in 90 seconds – soared into the sky to make visual contact with the Syrian pilots.

But the moment the Syrians ­spotted our planes on their radar they high-tailed for home.

If the bombers had pressed on into our exclusion zone they would have been shot down, military experts said last night.


And despite Parliament’s refusal to sanction military strikes against Syria, the RAF’s swift response is a warning to dictator Assad’s forces not to mess with Britain.

Defence analyst Edward Hunt told the Sunday People: “If they will not turn back then they have to be shot down.”

Sukhoi Su-24 A Sukhoi Su-24 like the ones flown towards Cyprus

The showdown happened on Monday before David Cameron and US President Barack Obama went to the G20 summit in Russia to

press for strikes against Syria ­following a nerve gas attack in the capital Damascus that killed nearly 1,500 civilians.

Two Turkish F-16s were also scrambled from their Incirlik air base in Turkey.

But they arrived on the scene long after the British Typhoons.

And as the Syrian planes codenamed Fencer by Nato were still in international air space all the scrambled allied planes were recalled.

A military source said: “If there’s no communication between the guys on the ground and the aircraft then this is what we do.

“These guys were heading in our direction.”

Flying at 600mph the planes could have reached Cyprus within 15 ­minutes of taking off from their base at Tiyas in the east of the country.

But AWAC spy planes detected them on radar and signalled the red alert.

(...)
 
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