Tac Vest does not make the grade.

[Britney Spears]

For those that aren't fans of vests, this hybrid rig may be the answer?

I'm feeling more and more preachy and pretentious with each reply, but here goes....... No, I don't spend every waking hour thinking about this stuff like some people do, only maybe 3 or 4 hrs/day. Most of this stuff is probably obvious to most of you, but lets level the playing field.

The spectrum from the "harness", where stuff is carried on the belt/hip,  and "vest", where weight rests on the shoulders, is positively correlated with the spectrum of sustained field operations in open country, to high intensity urban operations.  While doing section attacks and fire/movement, the 82 pattern webbing is superior, with better ventilation, freedom of upper body movement, easier access to pouches in the prone position, and more comfortable distribution of weight on the hips. See movie "Bravo two zero" for a good example of belt kits that are well suited for fire/movement across bare ass fields and 200lb rucksack marathons. On the other hand, in an urban enviroment, a "vest" style  kit allows for easier access while standing or kneeling, a slimmer profile for fitting into wall openings, windows, or vehicles. Vests are not, IMO, very well suited to carrying heavy loads. An example would be any police SWAT team, where the emphasis is on mobility in and around buildings and easy access to amunition and pyro, with no consideration for things like weght(presumably SWAT teams don't carry lots of water, rations, or support weapon ammunition) or long term comfort.

As Matt points out in his link, with modern technology (if sewing together pieces of nylon can be thought of as cutting edge) there's no reason why we can't have it both ways with a completely modular system.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Britney,

The issue of weight on the hips and ventilation becomes pretty much mooted when you're wearing a ballistic vest. 

With body armor on, webbing has no advantage to tac-vests in heat retention, as the body armor itself is the greatest retainer of heat.

Ideally, for long-range patrolling ops, the weight should be resting on the hips, but the armored vest interferes with with wearing a belt on the hips when the belt has lots of ammo. pouches, etc. on it.

A US Company, Crye Precision www.cryeprecision.com, was contracted by the US Army's Natick Laboratory for "Project Scorpion" which resulted in a very innovative family of body armour and tactical load-bearing equipment.  One of the concepts that they developed was an armoured waist belt that you could attach pouches directly on via PALS webbing.  The vest was cut short so that its wear wouldn't interfere with belt and the two were designed to work in concert with each other.  Some of the stuff they've come up with is very cutting edge and will set the standard for body armor and tactical kit interface for the next decade.

 

[Britney Spears]

( on the crye combat pants) Waste management zipper (no gear doff required)

That part would definitely seal the deal for me.

It seems that crye has also got an endorsement deal with Blackwater, in their blackwater gear line.

http://www.blackwatergear.com/products.html

A movie deal can't be far behind. I wonder how much of Blackhawk industries' current success is a result of their excusive supplier contract with Sony for the movie Blackhark Down

 

[Infanteer]

I've been hearing rave reviews about this CRYE stuff and the work being done with the US military from other sources as well....

 

[McG]

The only downside is doing this removes the NBC carrying capability of the TV.

You should not be attaching the gas mask carrier to the Tac Vest anyway (just as it was always "wrong" to have attached it to webbing).

 

[Matt_Fisher]

( on the crye combat pants) Waste management zipper (no gear doff required)

That part would definitely seal the deal for me.

It seems that crye has also got an endorsement deal with Blackwater, in their blackwater gear line.

http://www.blackwatergear.com/products.html

A movie deal can't be far behind. I wonder how much of Blackhawk industries' current success is a result of their excusive supplier contract with Sony for the movie Blackhark Down

Britney,

I don't know if you're confusing Blackwter with Blackhawk?  The two are different companies.
Blackwater is a security contracting and training company that is conducting alot of 'outsourced' ops. for the US DOD.
Blackhawk is a gear manufacturer.

Crye Precision has entered a partnership with Blackwater and Uncle Mike's (Michaels of Oregon) who've started their own tactical gear lineup:  Blackwater Gear.
http://www.blackwaterusa.com/btw2004/articles/1101frank.html
http://www.blackwatergear.com/

With the amount of time and money that Clothe the Soldier spent reinventing the wheel to come up their equipment, that most users have judged some as being good (sock system), alot mediocre (such as the tac-vest and first gen. Cadpat Gore-tex), it's pretty sad when you compare what a handful of people at Crye Precision have came up with on a relatively modest budget because THEY LISTENED TO THE USER when designing their stuff and kept the tactical efficiency of the operator at the core of their thoughts.

As far as Blackhawk's current success, I'd say it's more due to the fact that they spend more on advertising and marketing than any other gear manufacturer as well as a very effective supply chain management model and huge offshore production capacity that can supply gear as needed to their private market dealers when the dealers need it.  Whereas alot of other US based companies (Eagle Industries, SO Tech, SOE Gear, Tactical Tailor, etc.) are scrambling to keep up with demand from unit orders, then selling to the private market as a secondary effort.  The same goes for alot of US military orders.  If a unit is deploying and needs gear like assault packs and such and has only just gotten the funds allocated to them, Blackhawk is one of the few companies that can fill their orders immediately, plus they hammer the tradeshows and send so many GSA catalogs and marketing materials to the supply staff's at the unit, when the unit supply chief has just been told he can spend $X on assault packs and other gear, Blackhawk is probably the first company that comes to mind.

Blackhawk are masters of advertising, marketing and supply chain management, however their quality control and design functionality leaves a bit to be desired.

 

[pappy]

That Crye stuff looks damn nice, thanks for the link Matt.  very nice!

 

[Britney Spears]

Here's something innovative: rubber pads on the shoulders to hold your rifle butt.

 

[foerestedwarrior]

You should not be attaching the gas mask carrier to the Tac Vest anyway (just as it was always "wrong" to have attached it to webbing).

the TV has specific buckles put on for this use, the belt/shoulder strsp, ids not supposed to be used any more.

 

[linddd]

The reason Seals Action  Gear stopped selling Cadpat items is because we
discontinued selling the gear to them.
Thanks Dave
A&D MFG / TigerTactical

 

[The_Falcon]

the TV has specific buckles put on for this use, the belt/shoulder strsp, ids not supposed to be used any more.

So, the TV has specific buckles for the gas mask carrier.  As already pointed out, the TV has many design flaws, this being another.  The whole point of having the Gas Mask seperate from you webbing and now TV, is so you can wear you gas mask in area of NBC threat  while working, without having to wear your webgear/TV. 

 

[Morpheus32]

Gents,

One of the things I find interesting in these types of threads is the difference between what we carry around on exercise and what we carry on operations.   We develop very bad habits and drills in a lot of our training because we don't get issued all the stuff we are suppose to have such as body armour, NVGs, ammo loads.   We develop procedures, accept equipment that is substandard because it gets by in Canada.   On all three of my deployments, the gear I was expected to haul including ammo, grenades, water etc, outstripped the capablities of the pure issue kit.   When kit is purchased, some assumptions are made on the type of usage as well as some stuff as resupply and proximity to vehicles.   The hard reality is that on just about every major operation, the tasks as assigned to the troops demonstrate that the initial assumption is incorrect.   Many of you have fixed gear related problems by modifying or using civilian stuff.   By doing this you have demonstrated that the assumptions were incorrect again.   I too have purchased civilian kit to get the job done.  

I would like to comment on a couple of peoples load outs.   Water is life, don't go short on it.   On a weekend exercise you can get away with low water consumption but it will bite you in the butt if you do it on longer durations or in hotter climates.   Water cartage is a major issue and it should not be overlooked.   On bandoleers and slinging ammo.   It looks good in movies and sounds like it will work but it gets in the way, gets the ammo dirty/damaged and is generally a pain in the ***.   In Somalia, Bosnia and Afghanistan we were issued extra magazines on arrival in theatre.   Anywhere from 10 to 13 mags.    Loaded mags are better than bandoleers in a fight so we should have capablitity to carry them.   If when we do it for real, we decide to carry 10-13 mags, why has this disconnect to the load bearing vest taken place.   Again I refer back to the initial assumption of use of the gear.   By the way have you ever tried loading up with body armour and plates then sling a bunch of stuff.....you'll hate in minutes....

Patrol packs are for resupplying items on your load bearing gear and should not be the primary means to carry gear.   Loaded packs are hard to get on and off and unless the have dedicated pouches to organize the gear, the stuff you need is usually buried at the bottom on top loaders.   Trying getting them on and off with body armour on!   If you are going to use it, it needs to be easily accessible.   Basic load of mags and grenades should be on your vest not buried in the bottom of your pack.

Every soldiers gear load out will be different depending on the soldier's tasks.   The TV in its present configuration does not meet this need.   Soldiers are forced to comprimise, leave out water for ammo (example of a C9 gunners post) which in the long run could be extremely dangerous.   Modular is the future.   Gear must be compatible and useful with body armour.   In fact we should all have body armour to train with as it definitely changes how we do business.   Look at what you should be carrying when you assess the suitablity of the TV not what you get issued for training.  There is a big difference.  Sometimes we forget that.  

Just my 2 cents.

Jeff

 

[Matt_Fisher]

I agree with Jeff.

Train as you fight, because you'll fight as you have trained.

On the subject of body armor, the idea of training plates could be further expanded to 'training panels'.  Cost seems to be a major issue as to why all troops aren't issued ballistic vests and why operational units only seem to getting them.  By coming up with a 'training' ballistic panel for the vest (think lead x-ray apron or something similar), you could still replicate the weight, bulk and feel of the actual vest at a much lower cost than using the ballistic panels.

 

[Infanteer]

Morpheus, good post.

 

[HollywoodHitman]

There are certain things you need to conduct both training and operations. Ammo, food and water. There are extras of course, but I think we need to agree that there are alot of things that we personally bring along with us which we believe makes our jobs easier or more convenient. There were good points about the old webbing, and there were bad. There are good points about the tV and bad. We made due with the webbing for years and there were never any shortages of ingenious ideas coming out from all over the place. we have the TV and we will make due with what we have. Mods and additions will most certainly come out and soldiers will continue to develop ideas to improve the suitability based on their specific tradecrafts.

Excellent posts and points everyone.

TM

 

[zerhash]

does anybody know when we expect to get the patrol packs in?

1 point more. it would be nice if the TV could care the same amount of things that our 84 pattern was able to. As a gunner i cant store anything really unless i use the c9 ammo pouch.

 

[pbi]

Obviously there are a very large number of legitimate complaints out there about our new vest, modularity and battle-load capacity being the two that stand out most in the posts on this thread.The best judge of any piece of gear is the soldier who has to use it on op, when his life depends on it, day in and day out for months. Evidently, those judges have spoken, and the thumbs are down.

So a couple of questions (not to be smart-I honestly don't know....):

a) what is the initial reaction from the chain of command on these complaints?; and

b) what action is being taken to put together UCRs and other user recommendations concerning improving/replacing items? I guarantee that if UCRs are not done, and items are not mentioned in PORs, nothing will be done. Even if all this mention is made, it may still be a slow process, but at least it has a chance. Silence is consent.

On my part I will raise these issues through whatever useful channels I can think of, but I would like a couple of answers first. Cheers.

 

[Andyboy]

As far as I know KevinB et al have submitted UCRs on the vest. From experience I think it will be a long hard slog to get a change on this particular issue but it is needed in my opinion.

 

[pappy]

Not sure if the CAF does the same things...  But in the US Marine Corps its common for "Inspector General's Inspections".  It was common knowledge that if the IG staff came around and asked for a Marines opinion on anything he could speak out freely, well you'd better used a little tact doing so.  But once the IG asks well it's fair game if you use some common sense and tact.  Granted they could really give a goats A$$ if you tell then there isn't enough cold beer at the chow hall.  But.... it can work it you fight your battles right.

Back in the day when I was a young hard charging Marine one of my many duties was NBC warfare, as the NBC NCO I was in charge of the training my unit and suppiles our unit.
It 2nd LT in charge had never even gone to school for it, so he worked and learned from me.  Granted he was offically in charge he knew I had the skills and knowledge he was lacking.  Well our NBC gear in those days was a joke, a very bad joke.  As we prepared for the IG inspection me and the LT saw the shite state our gear was in.  Both of us knew our lives and the lives of our Marines was in danger.  I'm not sure what the past Marines in charge of the NBC shack where doing or not doing.  But we found some major problems.  Our CO wanted to play the "it's all cool, everything is great" with the IG staff (General's Aides should stay General's aides).  The 2nd LT was a bit tense about the upcoming inspection...  Well the hated day did come and in walks the IG staff.  A$$'s pucker a bit as this Marine General walks in.  Towards the rear of the herd following the IG was our CO, sweating bullets.  Well the IG walks around looking at all the NBC gear.  Most was in order,  good marks givien to all, smiles and happy faces all around....

Then the IG sees this big pile of crap in the corner of the NBC shack.  What's that he asks...  this IG knew what was up, he didn't ask the CO, he looked at me and asked:
"What's all MY Marine Corps Individual Protective Suits doing in the that pile Corporal?"
As we walk over to look closer, I tell him that's all the defective, out of date dry-rotted suits going back to Btn. Supply.
"Try one on Sir, they're Sh$&.  Would you risk you life in one of those?  Would you send your Marines into combat with this?"
The IG picks up one of these suits gently pulls at it and it shreds in his hands.  Looking at the pile and then back at the load-out boxes that where supposed to hold this gear  he askes me:
"where the F*#$ is the serviceable suits?"
"There are none Sir." I answered.
You could hear a pin drop in the room.  You could almost hear the CO losing control of his bowels.
The 2nd LT turns white.  The IG asks the 2nd LT "you knew about this LT?"  "Yes Sir"
Picking up a torn up suit in one hand and the wrapper in the other the IG looks at the LT and asks "you two did this?"
Oh man, I was thinking how that 16-lbs sledgehammer was going to feel in the brig for the next 10 years.
"So you two are saying ALL this gear is unserviceable?"
"Yes Sir, take a look at the packaging, the experation date was 10 - 7 years ago.  The Protective suits have a shelf life of 10 to 12 years, but the packaging has a life of only 5 to 7" I told him.  Low bidder strikes again.  Right on the wrapper is "Protective suit shelf life 10 to 12 years, if left sealed, open only when needed."  Below that in small print is a note from the supplier, "packaging should be inspected yearly, replace after 5 years." Seems they forgot to sell or offer vacuume re-packaging equipment to the Corps.

Everyone was looking a little uncomfortable.....

The IG askes what about the other units suits in the Btn?  "let's go see"  oh man the LT and me are screwed....

I knew what they'd find, having asked for repacements before the IG inspection, they are where unserviceable.  The IG found the entire Btn's MBC suits in the same condition.
Later that day the IG showed back up.  The LT and myself where "asked nicely" to report to the CO's office.....

Well the IG was a sitting there behind the CO's desk.... 
"So you two Marines are responsable for this entire Btn's NBC protective suits to be sh%$canned."
I didn't think that was a question...
You could hear my cheverons hiting the deck, along with the LT's shinny gold bars.  We're screwed......



"I bet we're going to find this all over this Island, aren't we?"  "All over the Corps..."
"Well Done Marines!  Heads are going to roll on this one."
Looking at our CO he adds "but Captian it ain't going to be these two men, I WILL be checking back and I don't expect any ill-will to be refected on thier records"

We heard later though channels that the entire Marine Corps took all this crap out of service and started working hot and heavy on new gear.  This was old 1960's and 1970 style impregnated cloth crapp, next came the charcol suits and now the newer encapsulated suits used now, or being issued.

If you CAF guys think your gear won't do the job, speak out, just chose your times wisely. But speak out, your lives may depend on it someday. Changes can be made.

 

[pbi]

Pappy: thanks so much for that post: it could not have been said better. I see that the role of the NCO is much the same in the USM as it is in our Army. In my experience, when Generals and others come calling, WOs/NCOs (esp Sgts Maj) are in an ideal position. Most Generals seem to care not one whit about any comments from Junior Officers (most of whom are scared to make them anyway...) but if they are any kind of a  man at all they will stop and listen to an NCO, and usually the note-taker with them will scribble furiously. Having been on the "staff receiving end" of Generals returning from visits to the field, I know that a good Gen will besiege his staff with a list of unit complaints a mile long, and will want answers. We used to hate it, but it's right and good.

The point I'm trying to make is that NCOs have a unique and valuable position: they are (or they should be...) respected for their experience and common sense, and they are able to do great good with that. I would LOVE to see an article in Cdn Army Journal or Inf Journal written by WOs/NCOs rolling out all the complaints about the current suite of kit. I would even help them write it.....

None of this relieves officers from our duties to fight the right fights: instead I'm just encouraging NCOs to keep on fighting as well. It will not happen overnight, but it can be done. After all, where did Clothe The Soldier come from in the first place? (Love it or hate it....) Cheers.