Tac Vest does not make the grade.

[MPSHIELD]

Nice Sum up Britney Spears, perhaps we can end this thread as this could truly go on for a ever. We all realise that soldiers have different opinions and experience on this subject. Anyone else think it is time to lock this one up? Moderators, the ball is in your court!

Just my opinion.

 

[Andyboy]

This thread can never die! I have some questions:

I was just wondering why the TV is front opening and the FPV is side opening? Also why is there no- slip stuff on FPV shoulder but none on the TV? What is the 2" "scuba" webbing on the back of the TV for? Is that interior pocket seriously for a map (by the way a one L platypus fits in there and if you unstitch the binding at the armhole a bit you can fit the hose through there, just don't go prone too hard)? Does anyone else have trouble fitting their issued whistle in the whistle pouch? What do you do with the string for your whistle? Or flashlight for that matter.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

This thread can never die! I have some questions:

I was just wondering why the TV is front opening and the FPV is side opening? Also why is there no- slip stuff on FPV shoulder but none on the TV? What is the 2" "scuba" webbing on the back of the TV for? Is that interior pocket seriously for a map (by the way a one L platypus fits in there and if you unstitch the binding at the armhole a bit you can fit the hose through there, just don't go prone too hard)? Does anyone else have trouble fitting their issued whistle in the whistle pouch? What do you do with the string for your whistle? Or flashlight for that matter.

The manual says an IMP will also fit in that pocket - since we no longer have a buttpack, I guess it's as good a place as any, eh....

 

[ArmyRick]

I guess having used TV for a roto in Bosnia and having used it numerous times in the field (doing hard infantry task) means my opinion of TV over webbing is right out of 'er? Sure I will go and tell all the other 031s at M-ford that anybody who likes TV over webbing is clueless.

 

[prarie chimo]

the CLS came down to talk to us and told us they're planning on going to a molle system.  That was april

 

[The_Falcon]

the CLS came down to talk to us and told us they're planning on going to a molle system.  That was april

And I will believe it when I see it. 

 

[R031button]

I really hope the molle comment isn't a refrence to the little molle patches seen on the trial vests some of the guys over here got issued.

 

[Loachman]

Photos?

More detailed description?

 

[R031button]

Sorry I thought more people were familiar with it. It's essentially the same as the tac vest, only the small utilities are mounted on the chest, and the mag pouches, which are expanded to double mag pouches are below them. The sides, where the current Velcro abortion system is, has two small patches of molle, and the vest is issued with two molle c9 pouches. The problems stem from a) the lack of grenade pouches; b) the magazine pouches are so short it's almost as though somebody at DLR took personal offense to the complaint that the pouches on the tac vest are two high, this causes the flaps to slip over the side, and I'm very much in doubt as to how well they actually hold mags; and c) the utility pouches are mounted in such a way that they interfere with drawing magazines.

 

[Loachman]

Thanks.

No, not all of us have heard of this. It may have been posted here somewhere, but I've been largely cut off from the interweb for the last two months.

Your description of the side panels confirms the image that I had in mind from your previous post,. It wasn't a pretty one to start with, and the idiocy of the front pouches is evcen worse.

The designers should be be given both a limited amount of time to come up with something functional, either their own design or something off-of-the-shelf, and simultaneous notice that they will be wearing it outside of the wire for a full tour as a trial when it's done.

As an added incentive, should one be necessary, the process would continue indefinitely with no personnel changes other than casualty replacements until a truly viable product is ready for general issue.

 

[R031button]

I think what bothers me the most about this whole situation is that the army is trialling a new vest to find something that "meets operational requirements" I believe was the official line. So essentially the vest they are forcing on soldiers doesn't do this, otherwise there would be no need to replace it, in the official sense that is, and they full admit that. That means that troops are wearing kit that even the institutional army admits doesn't do the job required of it. And they're being told that they cannot, even at personal expense, replace that kit.


Oh, and you'll notice that close protection teams don't wear the tac vest. I guess when it's the task force commander's life on the line it's a totally different story then when it's one of his soldiers.

 

[geo]

FWIW, I would think that they should do one of two things.....
-  Provide seamstress and webbing/TV components to the troops who have just returned from KAF.  Get a selection of these "bodged" vests - analyze & build a modular TV based on experience.

- Provide seamstress & webbing/TV components to the troops who are in KAF - get them to bodge & test out new TVs - analyze & build a modular TV based on experience.....

Anything else is bound to dissapoint.... IMHO

 

[Loachman]

Or buy a selection of Canadian-made commercial rigs that have already had the bugs worked out and have been found acceptable by troops in active combat and validate them officially in trials.

At the worst, one of these could then be selected and adopted as standard issue.

At best, more than one would be accepted either for issue according to personal choice or purchaseable with an allowance.

 

[PuckChaser]

Would just stripping everything off the TV and adding a complete MOLLE system with assorted pouches solve the issue, or do you guys think the whole vest would need to go? Adding the MOLLE system would definately be easier on the procurement process, other than finding a contractor to "rerole" the TV much like vehicles get fixed up.

 

[RCR Grunt]

The Tac Vest base is difficult to size and adjust, and some say that it does not retain the adjustments well.  Adjustments to size would be made depending on the amount of clothing worn and level of PPE worn.  In my opinion it needs to be completely scrapped and a new vest issued.

 

[Loachman]

Drop Zone Tactical offers a MOLLE version of the current Tac Vest already. That is definitely an improvement.

There are other problems inherent in the current Tac Vest, though, including balance (all weight is on the front panels, which shifts them down and the back panel up), extremely poor access to the map pocket, and adjustability. Others with more experience with it can add others, but these have already been discussed in other related threads.

If, by "stripping everything off", you mean taking existing vests, removing everything, and then adding MOLLE in place, that's way too expensive a proposition and the mesh is too weak.

As construction would have to be done from scratch anyway, as many of the deficiencies should be corrected as possible.

It is well worth your while to use the Search Function to find those threads and read them.

 

[R031button]

Drop Zone Tactical offers a MOLLE version of the current Tac Vest already. That is definitely an improvement

Not really, it's certainly modular, but it's also 1.5" not 1" like real molle, it's a pretty cheap and under handed way of getting people to buy the vest, and then making them buy the pouches from the only distributor that will fit the vest, at ridiculous prices on top of that. I fail to see why everything needs to be Canadian market, buy the best available for the best price and who cares where it comes from.

 

[Loachman]

Other manufacturers' pouches do indeed fit on the DZ vest.

True, selected/approved vest(s) do not have to be Canadian-made, but there are several Canadian manufacturers and they should have priority over others, all else being equal.

 

[RCR Grunt]

Why should Canadian manufacturers get priority?  Because they are Canadian?  That's one of the reasons that the procurement system is messed up, we're too busy keeping poorly run, dieing businesses afloat because they are Canadian instead of purchasing quality equipment from proven manufacturers.  If we create policy where we only buy quality equipment, Canadian businesses will begin to produce those products on a quality level without our favoring them.  If we show favor just because of their nationality, we will get stuck with sub-par Canadian made junk... again.

As for the DZ vest, if its not MOLLE, then its not acceptable.  I suspect they changed the size of there webbing so that only their pouches would fit it, thus increasing sales for their company.  Just because you can jam/stretch something into place on it doesn't make it workable.  For a modular vest, it has to be MOLLE/PALS or nothing.  These are internationally accepted and used standard systems and would vastly increase the market we could shop in for pouches.

 

[Loachman]

Why should Canadian manufacturers get priority?  Because they are Canadian?

I did say "all else being equal". Specified production standards of quality and durability will have to be met. Are our own manufacturers not capable of doing that? In all of the complaints regarding the current Tac Vest that I've seen here, I do not recall any regarding the quality of the materials or construction. Aside from blind patriotism, one's own manufacturers are generally more responsive to one's needs. Most/many of the products offered by Canadian aftermarket manufacturers today have had a fair amount of soldier input already and at least two are located near major Canadian bases which pretty much guarantees a healthy review process.

Perhaps, out of all of the commercially available vests that would/should be tried, the best might not be a Canadian design. So be it.

That's one of the reasons that the procurement system is messed up, we're too busy keeping poorly run, dieing businesses afloat because they are Canadian instead of purchasing quality equipment from proven manufacturers.  If we create policy where we only buy quality equipment, Canadian businesses will begin to produce those products on a quality level without our favoring them.  If we show favor just because of their nationality, we will get stuck with sub-par Canadian made junk... again.

Again, from a production rather than a design perspective, what is deficient about current issue equipment (speaking mainly about vests and associated items right now)? Materials? They're standard across all manufacturers. Stitchery?

From a design perspective, the problem is CF rather than any manufacturer.

I am not challenging, merely seeking enlightenment.

As for the DZ vest, if its not MOLLE, then its not acceptable.  I suspect they changed the size of there webbing so that only their pouches would fit it, thus increasing sales for their company.  Just because you can jam/stretch something into place on it doesn't make it workable.  For a modular vest, it has to be MOLLE/PALS or nothing.  These are internationally accepted and used standard systems and would vastly increase the market we could shop in for pouches.

I agree on the MOLLE/PALS requirement. The standardization and reliability aspects have been proven.

I have recently purchased a DZ vest, and plan to purchase a couple of different designs from other manufacturers. While I'll be unlikely to get outside of the wire on my upcoming deployment (TUAV Mission Commander) I am hoping to be over again in a real flying job in 2010. As the current Tac Hel LPSV (Life Preserver Survival Vest) is totally unsuitable for that environment (as is the current Tac Vest), I'm doing some personal research into available platforms for something a little more worthwhile. Besides, I've had a strong interest in personal kit over 3.5 decades of service and have had a hand in designing or modifying certain currently- or past-issued items during that time. Should I be able to justify a MOLLE vest on the basis of arranging pouches to suit crew position, that may be another wedge-in-the-door for overall acceptance.

Standard MOLLE pouches will attach to the DZ vest.