Tactical combat casualty care ( TCCC )

[Blakey]

:rocket: Blakey

 

[old medic]

Us medic types have a long thread about TCCC going.
It is located at:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/17775.0.html

Cheers

 

[Armymedic]

This topic has been discussed in depth in the Combat Service Support Site.

Boys, you are both right:
TCCCS

TCCCS "Tactical Command and Control Communications System" I hope I got that in the right order.

TCCC

I believe it is the Tactical Casualty Care Course

the new nomiclature in the CF will be "Combat First Responder"

Mods: please move to CSS...

 

[Laps]

Sorry guys for jumping in at the end of a (very well) established thread...

I started reading the Army Lessons Learned on the TCCC today and I was quite thrilled about the whole thing, since I didn't know that such thing was around.  As a St. John Instructor (don't shoot me!!!) teaching in the military, I have been fighting for a while for something more military-like.  However, despite working for the army, the tachel's airforce's origines remain just that: Airforce.  There seems to be a fair bit of apprehension into jumping towards such a great idea.

Can you guys let me know where the course's devolpment is at, and when should we expect to see people taking the course at large?  From what you guys seem to talk about (yes, I did read the whole thing), the course appears more geared towards the already Med-A qualified guy.  Asside from the PHTLS / BTLS dillema and issue (BTW, we are having a hard time getting a medical director for a PHTLS course, so they DO require medical direction), will there be a difference between a course taught to combat or CS / CSS guy than for a medic?

Again, sorry for jumping in late in the "chat"!!!

Laps

PS.: I guess you guys will have to forget the Vioxx now...  good 'ol Motrin anyone???

 

[Armymedic]

Can you guys let me know where the course's devolpment is at, and when should we expect to see people taking the course at large? From what you guys seem to talk about (yes, I did read the whole thing), the course appears more geared towards the already Med-A qualified guy. Asside from the PHTLS / BTLS dillema and issue (BTW, we are having a hard time getting a medical director for a PHTLS course, so they DO require medical direction), will there be a difference between a course taught to combat or CS / CSS guy than for a medic?

No problem Laps welcome aboad. (Not ANOTHER chopper pilot on the site   :)

A proper course is being developed as we speak. The course is directed at both the cbt soldier to teach them medical skills, and the med techs to teach them a bit of tactics. Medical skills (no matter the name) are the basics.

Where are you at, maybe I can suggest course of action to help you hitch onto the course.

 

[Laps]

I'm out of Edmonton.  I thought that while it would be next to impossible to get our members on such course, we could probably have a couple of FA instr TCCC qual'd, and we can maybe modify our FA course accordingly.  We do spend a fair bit of time in the field, and have extremely limited med ressources, so some more advanced medical training would definitely be an asset.

 

[Armymedic]

give 1 Fd Amb tng a call, they may be able to set you up.

Just remember, the course is not meant to replace medics, but to supplement them.

 

[Laps]

I'll try to give them a buzz and see if we can get some support.

Just remember, the course is not meant to replace medics, but to supplement them

You're right, but until the time where we will get more than 2 medics per Sqn, we will have to make sure evrybody knows what to do when someone gets a bullet...  (Something the Airforce could never imagine happening) :warstory:

 

[Armymedic]

or the time between crash and SAR arrival...

oh yeah, you guys don't crash, but land with more than normal force... :

 

[Laps]

My seat will stand the crash... uhmmm hard impact...  bu the troppies' one in the back is a different story. 

On a different note, I would be really interested in this course, so if anyone's got some good info, please let me know!

 

[Armymedic]

Heck, my ideal "flight" is where I depart the aircraft before it lands.

 

[medicineman]

When we run a BTLS course here in Gagetown, we usually have spots available on it for non-medics.  These people still have to do the same pre-reads and skills stations, just that the learning curve is different as alot of them have to make up for lack of prior medical training and we only test them on Basic Provider skills.

MM

 

[Fraser.g]

TCCC seems to be more of a mind set than a course in its self. It seems that the TCCC is one lecture of many in the Combat First Responder Program and T-FIT programs offered by the US Military.

Ref:
http://www.drum.army.mil/sites/tenants/division/CMDGRP/SURGEON/91W%20slide.htm

GF

 

[Armymedic]

One difference of thought is that the new 91W program teaches TCCC skills as part of the US Armys medic training. Its somewhere we need to go soon for our medic as well.

 

[Fraser.g]

Absolutely.
It has to be part of both Medic training and Combat First Responder/Combat Life Saver. We have to get away from the SFA mentality. Yes it has its place but that place is not in combat operations or a field environment. We have to teach both the 0 trades and our medics how to function and save lives in a military context.

 

[JANES]

Has anyone heard anything concrete about national standardization or implimentation?  What is the means and the end?  And who knows enough about it to make sure it is done right?

 

[Fraser.g]

JANES,

Good questions both. The answers are that any BTLS Advanced Instructor can teach the skills involved in the TCCC. TCCC is only a mind set to a greater treatment course. IMO what needs to happen is to run a BTLS Advanced Course with the TCCC priority listing of skills. Please see the skill set attachment to the thread "restructuring the reserve" as an example. As of now it has only been run at the area level for deploying combat arms types as an adjunct to their regular training. They did not get the kits until in theater and then had to turn them in on repatriation.
What is needed is a re righting of CFAO 9-5 has to be re written to the TCCC standard or at least a SFA standard.http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/009-05_e.asp.
Another thing is that each of the areas and/ or regiments should start requesting the training for their troops.
This is how it is going to be for the next while and it is a damn good standard to be teaching a select few of the combat arms troops to.
It is up to CFMG, and the area commanders to elevate the standard of medical preparedness within their commands.

IMHO

 

[JANES]

You see, this is where you're wrong.  The whole problem that TCCC was designed to solve was to get out of the BTLS mentality casualty approach.  The BTLS instructor (alone) has no tactical background, and if they do then is it standardized TCCC?  It seems to me like it is the delicate balance between tactics and medicine, not civi medicine in a fancy green uniform.  To teach someone to stop bleeding and crack a chest is not enough, you need to teach them how and when to do these skills in a tactical and combat environment, hence its name.  You can read all the slideshows and books you want, but to truely understand it you need the experience.  So I'll ask again, who will develope the standards and who will teach it? 

 

[Fraser.g]

Ahhh,

If you read my last post I stated that "any BTLS Advanced Instructor can teach the skills involved in the TCCC". The skills can be taught like needling the chest, applying a tourniquet etc. What has to be taught is the skills and then how apply them to the tactical environment. There are some things that BTLS and TCCC do not mesh on and that is dictated by the environment.
As I stated before TCCC is a mind set and a read of the environment. It is a theory, based on practice, that the individual receiving the course can then use as a guideline for application in the field. The BTLS course is the basis of Prue-hospital care in North America. This way the Combat First Aider and the Medic are all on the same sheet of music and if there is a deviation then there can be a rational for the deviation. The problem with BTLS is that it is too rigid and why we are now looking and liking the TCCC guide to amend the course for military use.


True any monkey can stand up and click a PPT slide show with out knowing the material. The idea here is to teach First Aid that can be applied in a combat environment.

 

[Armymedic]

You see, this is where you're wrong.   The whole problem that TCCC was designed to solve was to get out of the BTLS mentality casualty approach.   The BTLS instructor (alone) has no tactical background, and if they do then is it standardized TCCC?   It seems to me like it is the delicate balance between tactics and medicine, not civi medicine in a fancy green uniform.   To teach someone to stop bleeding and crack a chest is not enough, you need to teach them how and when to do these skills in a tactical and combat environment, hence its name.   You can read all the slideshows and books you want, but to truely understand it you need the experience.   So I'll ask again, who will develope the standards and who will teach it?  

CF H Svc Gp will, eventually.

BTW, you are also wrong. TCCC was designed to get out of the (ST Johns, Red Cross) Standard First Aid mentality casualty approach. Actual medical skills being added to tactically adept soldiers to alleviate the requirement to have medical specialists along with every special mission.

The problem with BTLS is that it is too rigid and why we are now looking and liking the TCCC guide to amend the course for military use.

Newest versions of BTLS is not as rigid. Its the instructors who are too rigid. In my BTLS courses, we give example in military medicine, and actually look at options when you don't have the perfect 3:1 ratio of providers to casualties.

And what would be so wrong with an Adv BTLS instructor/Coordinator like myself teaching 30 infanteers TCCC?