Terrorist Deathwatch: Yasser Arafat

[pappy]

One state would have worked in 1948, if the plaistinians had stayed, they where screwed but the Arab league that promised a short war / end of Israel.  opps they left and lost.
unfortunity too much blood and water passed under the bridge for one-state option to work.  Two states is the only option, Arafat pissed that chance way at Camp David, the Israelis offered them 90% of what they asked for.  He screwed up big time.  Right of return will never be a option.  Forget it, will never happen.

Interesting side note....  the Palistinians living in the refugee camps get monthy check from the UN (via Uncle Sammy), tax free, about $20,000 / year.  97% of that from US tax payers, 3% from all thier friends in the arab world, kinda funny huh?

The Palastinians got played for suckers by the Arabs for the last 50 years.

Simple solution, that probaley no one will acept..... Gaza to Eygpt.... West Bank (at least what Israel will give up) to Jordon.  And peace treaties all around.

A complicated issue, not easy to solve in a newsgroup.....

But to Arafat.... see ya!  say hello to Allah for me or the Devil, my money is he's got a red suit with his name on it in hell.

In the long run the Palastinians are better off without him....

I just wonder who posioned him?

 

[winchable]

But to Arafat.... see ya!  say hello to Allah for me or the Devil, my money is he's got a red suit with his name on it in heck

Aw, come on pappy even Bush said "God Bless his soul"

Actually if you think about it that's kind of an interesting statement because presidents always say "God Bless America" so is it the same kind of blessing or is it a different half blessing from the one America gets.

 

[Acorn]

Two states is the only option, Arafat pissed that chance way at Camp David, the Israelis offered them 90% of what they asked for.   He screwed up big time.   Right of return will never be a option.   Forget it, will never happen.

Ah, yes, the 90% solution. Tell me, what was the "90%?" I hear this argument so often, but as of yet, no-one is defining what the 90% comprises, and what the 10% consists of.

Interesting side note....   the Palistinians living in the refugee camps get monthy check from the UN (via Uncle Sammy), tax free, about $20,000 / year.   97% of that from US tax payers, 3% from all thier friends in the arab world, kinda funny huh?

Really? Care to be more specific? $20k/year is a huge amount in that part of the world. One wonders what they do with it all.

The Palestinians have been pawns in the regional power games, played as much by the Arab states as by others. That's true. But there's a lot of misinformation and exaggeration out there. Try having a look at both sides objectively.

Acorn

 

[xFusilier]

Actually if you think about it that's kind of an interesting statement because presidents always say "God Bless America" so is it the same kind of blessing or is it a different half blessing from the one America gets.

Haha probably one of the better questions asked on this forum.

I personally love the term "terrorist" especially used in the debate about Israel and Palestine, especially when you consider the man that purpotrated the act which defined terrorism in its modern form was Menachim Begin.

Arafat, in his current form, was really a creation of the Israelis.  We shouldn't forget that while the intifada was occuring in the West Bank in 1987, Arafat, courtesy of the Arab League was enjoying an all expense paid vacation in Tunisia.  The Israeli's rather than deal with the leaders of the intifada, chose to seek Arafat as their partner for peace.  Personally I think the reason for this was that they (the israelis) knew that Arafat (out of pride, and political capital) would never make peace with Israel without the right of return being included in any final settlement.  The right of return of course will never be supported by the US as a result no peace agreement.

Arafat will go down in history as a flawed man, then again none of the "founding fathers" of the US were perfect either.  Arafat did manage to move the palestininan question to the forefront in world affairs, and more than likely that will be his legacy.  To be certain the man spent his last years as nothing more than a tin pot dictator of a quasi-country, but when all is said in done, he managed to move the impetus for a palestinian state along.

The question now is who will take over?

Unfourtunately events as of late will most likely dictate that it will be a fundementalist muslim.  A simple index on the support/radicalization/religous fervour of the Arab would is to look at the women.  When they're wearing the hijab, the populace is polarized along religous lines, when their not a more secular view is present.  I was struck be the difference in the frequency of covering in 1995 when I lived in Bethlehem versus what I see in the news (problems with media bias accounted for)

 

[1feral1]

I haven't seen any reports of this ... where are you hearing it from?

I heard this last night on Network 10's late news. Maybe try reuters (did I spell that right?). It was a legit report, or maybe do a search on google or something.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'm older than most on this board, but not as old as some. I watched Arafat go from a suicide bomber with no balls to kill himself, to a rebel leader, to the head of a sanctioned UN party, to diplomat, to head of state without changing stripes or being duly and lawfully elected. All under the auspices of the UN.

As far as I'm concerned, he's never wanted peace. No matter the cost or concession. Unfortunately, he's fomented the same ideology into the next two generations.
In order to break the chain of violence, it will take two more generations. All we can do is prepare for it, accept it and try to work around it.

I wish it weren't so, but for some, the word peace is not in their vocabulary. The cause (whatever that may be) is all, and all is the cause, no matter the sanity of it.

In my mind, he's on his way out, So be it. He's just another talking head that has got an audience to do his bidding. Good riddance, and hopefully his replacement will do better.

We can only hope.

 

[Guardian]

His replacement could hardly do any worse.....

But as long as the EU- and UN-funded PA educational system keeps twisting young minds by glorifying the "martyrs" and calling Jews "pigs" and so on, the next generations of Palestinian leaders can't be expected to embrace peace any more than their predecessors.

But yes, good riddance....

 

[Shec]

The question is, what does this mean for future prospects of peace or a democratic state of some kind in the region.

There is a democratic state in the region - its called Israel.    At least 6 elected Israeli Arabs sit as Members of the Knesset (Parliament)   and they are often openly and freely critical of government policy.  

Interesting how Arab democracies are few and far between but that is their choice as people tend to get the kind of government they deserve. It is up to the Palestinians to create their own state as they see fit in a 2 state solution.   Realisitically there is no other way given the legacy of   fears, hatreds,   and demographics.  

As far as peace between   separate sovereign states goes, the best prospects lie in trade and commerce as post-peace treaty Israeli relations with Jordan and Egypt exemplify.

As far as the old baby-killer Arafat is concerned - indeed good riddance.    Did you ever notice how, while not perfect, at the least the soldiers of the   IDF stand in front of their children while the PA and their Hamas associates stand behind theirs.

 

[winchable]

At no time did I defend the PA the PLO or any government in the Middle East as I feel they're all dropping the ball, so you're preaching to the choir.

 

[Shec]

At no time did I defend the PA the PLO or any government in the Middle East as I feel they're all dropping the ball, so you're preaching to the choir.

Rest assured Che I do not accuse you of defending any existing institution that I do not subscribe to.   However, like you I reserve the right to advance   my opinion   which advocates what I think to be a pragmatic approach given the prevailing circumstances   - 2 states with trade and commercial relations being the best potential guarantor of peaceful co-existance.    And rather than "preaching to the choir" that adds another dimension to the debate.

Tell me, what other prescription seems to have worked in that part of the world?    I submit it is not unrealistic.    In addition to the above -cited trade relations   between Israel, Egypt, and Jordan have you ever seen people from all backgrounds trading in a Shuk (a market/bazaar)?    Everybody gets along as everybody wins.    What some people might call crass consumerism does much more than politics and rhetoric   to keep people alive and prosperous.

 

[winchable]

The 2 state solution would be the most pragmatic approach there is no question.
There's something I've often wondered which is how the land would be divided in said case? According to population?

In addition to trade between Israel, Egypt, and Jordan have you ever seen people from all backgrounds trading in a Shuk (a market/bazaar)?  Everybody gets along as everybody wins.

It never was the people that were the problem I can agree with you on that.
I've seen Jews Christians and Muslims haggle over prices, and they weren't fighting because of religion or race...it was because the guy was charging way too much for vegetables.

 

[Shec]

The 2 state solution would be the most pragmatic approach there is no question.
There's something I've often wondered which is how the land would be divided in said case? According to population?

If it were my call:  With the exception of the Golan Heights (soley because of their strategic value)  I would be happy to see a return to pre-1967 borders with Jerusalem declared an international city - a sovereign city state if you will - given its importance to 3 major religions.

 

[winchable]

I read about that the other day for the first time and do agree.
The Christians aren't given much recognition in the argument either though I believe they make up quite a substantial part of the population.

Unfortunately there people on both sides who have lost sight of the reason they're fighting and forget what they're religion is supposed to be about.

Shalom

 

[Shec]

Shalom

Salaam 

 

[Ty]

Salaam  

Being born in the region and having to endure the pointless bloodshed, I have to say that was really one of the most poignant exchanges I've ever experienced.  People like you are the TRUE solution to the problem! 

Jews and Muslims share many similar religious idealogies, same cultural values, same family values, same skin tone, same affinity to smoking, same roots.  And same pig-headedness. Maybe one day we can shed the latter.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
And same pig-headedness. ;D......I'll bet another word would probably been a better fit.
[couldn't resist THAT one]

 

[winchable]

http://slate.msn.com/id/2109226/

Little article on him.
No update on his status it seems.

 

[winchable]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/09/international/middleeast/09arafat.html


Oy vey you should see the reaction to this I'm seeing within the community.

 

[Acorn]

I don't have NYT access.

In any case Che, can you summarize the reaction?

(love the "oy vey" irony)

Acorn

 

[winchable]

Well he and his wife never had particularly normal relations.
He was stuck in his compound while she flaunted about Paris in a BMW in fashionable clothes while he is seen as having stuck with Palestine.
She's not a Palestinian (French I believe)
The Palestinian community isn't entirely convinced that Abu Mazen or any of this contemporaries and possible successors are good for Palestine so when this woman who basically abandoned Yasser(nothing is more sacred than the bond between husband and wife in many ways) to his tormentors picks up his cause at his death bed....
She was already terribly unpopular anyhow, seen as some kind of Gaza Strip Socialite when she rarely visited, flaunting her wealth in the face of such poverty.
She's doing nothing to help essentially.
For a people who are deeply suspicious of the possible successors who "stuck with" Palestine to have to put up with her blocking access to Arafat is a strain on an already strenuous situation.
She says she is looking out for Abu Ammar but where was she for the last 2 years? Living off a 100,000$ a month allowance in Paris.

She is either vying for Arafats alleged money or she is trying to make more war.

Either way I don't particularly like what shes doing, and a great many Palestinians don't either.