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The 2008 Canadian Election- Merged Thread

Debates are hard to control; it is too easy to ‘score’ in even a carefully scripted debate. Big debates, four or five people, are harder to manage than small, one on one debates, simply because the dynamics are more complex.

Were I Stephen Harper I think I could prefer three (six?) one-on-one debates: SH vs GD, SH vs SD and SH vs JL. I I were Jack Layton I know I would prefer one-on-one debates.

Only Stéphane Dion clearly benefits from larger debates – the complex dynamics are most likely to provide opportunities for the weakest leader/debater even as they provide challenges or threats to the stronger leaders/debaters.

Maybe there is method in the (reported) threats by the Conservatives and NDP to withdraw if May is allowed in. Maybe a whole hockey sock full of short, one-on-one debates would serve them better.

 
E.R. Campbell said:
Maybe there is method in the (reported) threats by the Conservatives and NDP to withdraw if May is allowed in. Maybe a whole hockey sock full of short, one-on-one debates would serve them better.

If I were in May's situation I would do whatever it took to gain attention.....which she is doing...

While unlikely to be accepted unless Harper backs out of a major debate, the  one-on-one debates would benefit the smaller parties, if only for the exposure they generate and the antics they could get up to with questioning why Harper will not debate them individually....
 
GAP said:
While unlikely to be accepted unless Harper backs out of a major debate, the  one-on-one debates would benefit the smaller parties, if only for the exposure they generate and the antics they could get up to with questioning why Harper will not debate them individually....

Which quite obviously, to the knowledgeable observer, shows that Harper has everything to loose, and the small party leader has everything to gain through these antics.  It would also show Harper to be a strong candidate should he be able to turn those antics around on the persons initiating them, deflating their arguments.
 
George Wallace said:
Which quite obviously, to the knowledgeable observer, shows that Harper has everything to loose, and the small party leader has everything to gain through these antics.  It would also show Harper to be a strong candidate should he be able to turn those antics around on the persons initiating them, deflating their arguments.

agreed....so why put yourself in the firing line if you don't need to....just suppress them when they are politically weak.

The court challenge thingy isn't going to cut it...they have a choice to participate or not, and the Conservatives simply said  that if May is in, they are out....the courts can't force you to debate someone.
 
It just shows how narrow minded the elitist parties really are. It's a shame that even in this day and age Canada is still in the dark ages. Why vote or even waste the time of voting if people are herded through corruptive motives and biased media outlets.

Besides the debate is a just a none swearing mud tossing slanderfest anyways. It's not actually going to change anyones opinions on what they think of them. Everyone already knows what to expect from all sides except the greens at this point.

The BLOC would relocate ottawa across the river in Gatineuax and then claim independence from Canada taking the rest of the countries tax pot with them...
The NDP would make a ton of promises and much like yesteryear break them all, steal till they can't steal no more then claim it's our own fault and launch another massive lawsuit against us...
The Cons would go back to where they are now and carry on blissfully while the economy goes in the tank...
The LIBs  would raise taxes to the point of starvation en masse, point thier fingers at the CONS and NDP and blame them for everything in the hopes of justifying thier tax hikes and ruination of the country.

Thus that leaves the greens... a  new party with no experience at any of the above mainstream politics, thus we have a 50/50 shot that they will screw up in favour of the common folk...

Cheers.
 
Snafu-Bar said:
Thus that leaves the greens... a  new party with no experience at any of the above mainstream politics, thus we have a 50/50 shot that they will screw up in favour of the common folk...

Cheers.

Sorry, but I don't see any 50/50 shot for the Greens.  At this latitude I do not want to be living in a Grass Hut.  I do not want to be wearing clothes made solely of hemp to keep warm in February.  I do not want to see our Industry destroyed in favour of Cottage Industry.  I do not want to see my lifestyle drastically reduced to please every and any environmental fanatic nut job.  I do not want to see my diet reduced due to fanatical Animal Rights advocates.  I do not want to see extra taxes put on my automobile, my gas, my electricity, my water, my clothes, my food, my electronics, etc.  I don't look at this as being a 50/50 shot at giving the Greens a chance to govern; more like a 99.9999/.0001 chance.  The Greens would destroy the nation faster than any of the other Parties.  Good intentions, but no thought.
 
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, is some food for thought for all us Ontarians from Queen’s Park columnist Murray Campbell (no relation, I hasten to add):

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080909.CAMPBELL09/TPStory/National/columnists
McGuinty's sad refrain on the problem of fairness

MURRAY CAMPBELL
mcampbell@globeandmail.com

September 9, 2008

Dalton McGuinty is clearly having trouble dealing with Albert Einstein.

For months, the Ontario Premier has been quoting the physicist's remark that the definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." And yet here is he again, trying for the third time in four years to get federal politicians to listen to his argument that Ontario isn't getting a fair shake within Canada.

The horse that Mr. McGuinty is beating may not be dead but it's certainly on life support. He made the same "fairness" argument in the past two federal elections. The province has made some gains, but neither Paul Martin nor Stephen Harper has bought it completely. That's why Mr. McGuinty is still complaining about a $20-billion shortfall between what Ontario taxpayers send to Ottawa and the services they get in return. In addition, the MPs that Ontario voters send to the Commons have continued to behave as if the province is simply a postal address and not a jurisdiction with real needs.

The legions of Liberals that swamped Ottawa after the 1993 election cared little about the punishment Ontario took when federal transfer payments were slashed. Their Conservative successors have been equally indifferent to Canada's most-populous province. If you doubt this, think of the firestorm that would have resulted if Finance Minister Jim Flaherty had said that Quebec was the last place anyone would want to invest, or if government House Leader Peter Van Loan had called Premier Jean Charest the "small man of Confederation."

Despite this history, a hopeful Mr. McGuinty summoned reporters yesterday to say he's taking another kick at the can. He is asking Ontarians to buttonhole candidates in the next five weeks to find out what they would do to redress the province's grievances.

"I know it's unusual for Ontarians to do these kinds of things but we need to hang tight on this," Mr. McGuinty said. "We need to come together and we need to say to every single candidate that comes to the door, 'Great, I've heard you on all the other stuff but I've got another one for you - where do you stand on fairness for Ontario?' "

It's the latest attempt by the Premier to reverse the tide of history and inculcate a regional identity in a province that for the past 60 years has lined up with the national government. He says looking out for the national interest is Ottawa's job. "I think one of the problems we might have had in the past was that we confused this job with that job and this job, as I interpret it at the beginning of the 21st century, is to stand up for Ontario," the Premier said.

It's an interesting, opportunistic strategy. Voters in other provinces have developed a keen sense of self-interest - recall how Liberals in the Atlantic provinces were punished in the 1997 election for tightening employment insurance rules - but Ontarians have long worn a "kick me" sign.

There's no clear sense yet what this election is about and it's worth a try to see whether Ontario voters can fill the vacuum with a regional grievance.

But Mr. McGuinty needs to consider where he will be on Oct. 15 if Ontario voters don't climb on his bandwagon. The Premier's advisers say they haven't yet worked out the tactics of the Ontario First campaign, although they say it will be a gentle thing. But that doesn't mean he won't ruffle a lot of feathers.

What if the Conservatives get a majority without listening to Mr. McGuinty? Will Ontario be isolated? Worse, what if they get another minority and blame the Premier for depriving them of their goal. And if the Liberals return to office, will they reward a guy who yesterday refused to endorse their party?

Despite being a card carrying Tory (and I’ll retain that descriptor on my Army.ca identity until the election is over) I agree with Dalton McWhimpy: Ontario got royally screwed by the Chrétien/Martin team (although the vast majority of Ontarians are too dumb to comprehend that) and Harper has done little, too little, to repair the damage.

Ontario is the “engine of economic growth” for Canada. Yes, yes, I know Alberta and BC and Newfoundland and even Saskatchewan are resource rich but Ontario has ⅓ of Canada’s population and used to produce 40% of our GDP- Alberta, BC, Newfoundland and Labrador and Saskatchewan combined cannot replace that.

There is, as historian Michael Bliss put it a few years ago, a national divide right on the Ottawa River. Old Canada is East of that divide – despite some offshore oil it is in graceful decline: social decline, economic decline and political decline. New Canada is West of that divide and it is should be booming because it is wealthy and has a good, albeit underutilized, industrial base, a growing and dynamic population and good physical access to the large, existing US and growing Asian markets. The problem is that, right now, there is too little, beyond resources, being produced to sell into those markets.

Distributing the national entitlements on a less unfair basis would provide some help but, really, we need new tax and trade policies and programmes that make Ontario, indeed all of ‘New Canada,’ a more attractive place to produce goods and services for the global market.

 
George Wallace said:
Sorry, but I don't see any 50/50 shot for the Greens.  At this latitude I do not want to be living in a Grass Hut.  I do not want to be wearing clothes made solely of hemp to keep warm in February.  I do not want to see our Industry destroyed in favour of Cottage Industry.  I do not want to see my lifestyle drastically reduced to please every and any environmental fanatic nut job.  I do not want to see my diet reduced due to fanatical Animal Rights advocates.  I do not want to see extra taxes put on my automobile, my gas, my electricity, my water, my clothes, my food, my electronics, etc.  I don't look at this as being a 50/50 shot at giving the Greens a chance to govern; more like a 99.9999/.0001 chance.  The Greens would destroy the nation faster than any of the other Parties.  Good intentions, but no thought.

I disagree.

For one hemp a readily known non drug related weed can provide fibres for clothes and paperlike products, thus saving more trees. The use of hemp has been around for eons. Ask any of the navy guys about a hemp rope.

The military is here to stay, even peacefull people know it's better have than need when the time comes. We all know it's coming sooner or later.

The environment can be cleaned up without destroying anything, the ownus is on the companies NOT the consumer. If joe blow makes steel and he does so in the hopes of getting rich, then he is the one footing the bills for damages. Thus he pays not you and i. If we leave a trail of destruction behind us YES we should be held accountable for it.

The automotive industry is 50 years past evolution, time for fully electric cars to take over anyways. One is already manufactured here in Canada and sold in the US due to our useless goverment and it's political dickerydoonothing attitude. Electricity is available in many sources. We have the means to change to wind and solar power, we also have the means to be more efficient with our water. The technology is there, the willingness to change IS NOT. This is not all about money either, it's a mindset that everyone can't seem to wrap thier heads around.

But hey your free to choose another 4 years of status quo...


Cheers.
 
All good things, if not taken to the extreme.  Unfortunately, I look at their wishy washy policies and see the extreme.  Sorry but I am not Amish.  I do worry about the environment and economy and am willing to make changes, but I am not willing to give everything away on the words of fantics.
 
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail is national affairs columnist Jeffrey Simpson’s take on Harper’s strategy:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080908.wcosimp09/BNStory/specialComment/?query=
Harper tries to resuscitate the Mulroney coalition

JEFFREY SIMPSON

From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
September 9, 2008 at 12:30 AM EDT

RICHMOND, B.C. — Prime Minister Stephen Harper doesn't talk to Brian Mulroney any more because of the Karlheinz Schreiber affair, but Mr. Harper is trying to recreate the same national coalition that his Conservative predecessor built in 1984 and 1988.

Yesterday, Mr. Harper talked about his government's family-friendly policies at a photo op in a Chinese-Canadian family's backyard in Richmond, one of those surreal campaign events replete with toys on the lawn. On Sunday, however, he called the election in Quebec City, the epicentre of the Harper strategy for recreating the Mulroney coalition.

In and around Quebec City, and throughout the province outside Montreal, Mr. Harper intends to win at least several dozen additional seats and, with them, his coveted majority.

The Mulroney coalition depended on traditional Conservative support elsewhere in Canada married to nationalist votes in Quebec. For two elections, the coalition worked brilliantly for Mr. Mulroney, until the acrimonious collapse of the Meech Lake constitutional accord ripped it apart.

A young Stephen Harper, then a Reformer, was among the destroyers of that coalition. He deplored Mr. Mulroney's kowtowing to Quebec and his proposal for Quebec's being described as a "distinct society," and hewed to the Reform line that all provinces were equal. Now, 15 years later, he is trying to knit together exactly the same coalition he helped to destroy with the same sort of Mulroney appeal to Quebec.

Call it opportunism. Call it wisdom. Call it changed circumstances. The old strategy Mr. Harper once derided is the one he now pursues. With one exception.

Mr. Mulroney was a Quebec leader, born and educated there, with an appreciation for the mores, reflexes, habits of mind, traditions, slang, history, ambitions and dark corners of his native province. When Mr. Mulroney swept Quebec, he stood in a long line of Quebec leaders who had defeated national parties led by someone from outside Quebec.

Never in Canadian history has a party led by a non-Quebecker won more seats in Quebec than one led by a Quebecker. Quebeckers, regardless of party and circumstances, have always voted for one of their own when given a choice between one of their own and someone from another part of Canada.

That tradition makes Mr. Harper's Quebec strategy bold, and potentially historic. If the Conservatives win more seats in Quebec than the Bloc Québécois, it would be a first in Canadian history. It would also propel Mr. Harper to a solid majority government, and fundamentally realign Canadian politics by making the Conservatives, not the Liberals, the principal bridge between Quebec and the rest of Canada.

Which is why Mr. Harper started his campaign in Quebec City, where he listed all the things he had done for Quebec, a list that overtly appealed to Quebec nationalism and Quebeckers' pocketbooks. That he has so assiduously courted Quebec, and introduced policies he would have railed against as a Reform MP, shows how far he has gone - and willing to go - to recreate that Mulroney coalition.

Remember, he told his audience, that he had got through Parliament a motion to recognize the Québécois as a "nation" within Canada. He had solved the "fiscal imbalance," a verifiable non-problem that had nonetheless achieved mythical status as fact in Quebec. He had invested lots of federal money in Quebec.

He had given Quebec expanded international powers. He had practised "open federalism," which meant keeping Ottawa out of areas of provincial jurisdiction. More, he promised, would come, including fettering Ottawa's power to spend money in areas of provincial jurisdiction, a long-standing Quebec demand.

The details were different, but the general pitch was the one Mr. Mulroney made in 1984 — except for the fatal Mulroney promise to reopen the constitutional file, the trap-door promise that led to his party's national collapse, and the creation of the Bloc and the Reform party that included Mr. Harper.

The Conservatives smell the stench of Liberal defeat everywhere in Quebec. They sense the increasing uselessness of the Bloc, a party, as Mr. Harper noted, created 18 years ago to move Quebec to sovereignty but now completely dépassé.

Mr. Harper senses an opening, as Mr. Mulroney did in 1984, and he is using his predecessor's very strategy to become the first non-Quebec leader to win the largest number of seats against the Bloc, led by a Quebecker.

Simpson is correct, as far as he goes, in telling us that Harper needs to unite his strong Western base with a lot of Québec and Ontario seats in order to form a majority government.

But, the way appeal to Québecers without alienating other Canadians is not to repeat Mulroney’s constitutional fiascos (Meech Lake and Charlottetown), it is to offer (force upon?) all provinces the same degree of autonomy that Québec desires. And that, I think, is Stephen Harper’s not at all well hidden agenda.

 
But, the way appeal to Québecers without alienating other Canadians is not to repeat Mulroney’s constitutional fiascos (Meech Lake and Charlottetown), it is to offer (force upon?) all provinces the same degree of autonomy that Québec desires. And that, I think, is Stephen Harper’s not at all well hidden agenda.

That makes for a stronger, less centralist Canada....there will still be individual issues, some probably pretty controversial, but I believe that is what was originally envisioned of the Confederation...
 
GAP said:
... I believe that is what was originally envisioned of the Confederation...

Most historians disagree.

The 'Fathers of Confederation' were seeking a strong central government. The recent US Civil War weighed heavily on their minds.

The problem was that the real authors of the British North America Act were bureaucrats in London who guessed wrong on the division of responsibilities and crafted a Constitution that created one of the most decentralized federal states in the world. But that wasn't what the politicians had in mind.

Stuff happens, as they say.

 
Pooping puffin pulled from Tory ad
STEVEN CHASE AND JANE TABER Globe and Mail Update September 9, 2008 at 11:50 AM EDT
Article Link

The Conservatives have edited an Internet ad showing a bird pooping on Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion to remove the defecation scene.

Tories say the clip was the result of an overzealous web designer and Conservative Leader Stephen Harper apologized for the defecating puffin, calling it “tasteless and inapropriate.”

Mr. Harper said he didn't know about the web clip before it was posted Monday night. “Belittling images are not fair game,” Mr. Harper said.

The web ad at www.notaleader.ca still shows a puffin flying around Mr. Dion, but it no longer defecates on his shoulder. Instead, it now links through to a video of Michael Ignatieff saying: “And they put their excrement in one place, they hide their excrement. This seems to me to be a symbol of what our party should be.”
More on link
 
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Ottawa Citizen, is a column by Andrew which, as a card carrying Conservative, I find a bit troubling but which, despite being a card carrying Conservative, also says much with which I agree:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/columnists/story.html?id=aaf0af2d-6590-4e91-9316-cc88557cd24b
Don't go sleepwalking to the polls

Andrew Cohen, The Ottawa Citizen

Published: Tuesday, September 09, 2008

What do Canadians want? As the election campaign begins, the answer isn't clear, much as the politicians say it is.

We do know that most Canadians are not demanding an election this autumn. While this has been the longest minority government in our history, it wasn't "dysfunctional" as the Prime Minister said. Issues were debated; laws were passed.

By and large, things are good in the contented Kingdom of Canada. The economy is fairly strong. Unemployment is low and inflation is manageable. Debt is falling amid large (if shrinking) surpluses. Crime is the lowest in a generation.

In a sense, Stephen Harper's Canada of 2008 is reminiscent of Bill Clinton's America of 1998: rich, comfortable and awfully complacent. Without a pressing issue, like terrorism or a foreign war, a Republican Congress found time to impeach a Democratic President.

Two years later, Americans voted in an election that comedian Jerry Seinfeld said was about "nothing." In a sense, it was. Charm trumped intellect in an age of affluence; George W. Bush was the incurious beneficiary.

Three years later, the world changed. The long, languid American summer came to a violent end. Today Mr. Bush is the most unpopular president in memory.

Canada is not America, Mr. Harper is not Mr. Bush and this is not a decade ago. But if a prosperous, somnolent Canada treats this election as inconsequential, convinced that it is about nothing, it will be a grave mistake.

If Canadians give their unloved Prime Minister a majority because they think minority government is a nuisance, because they resent voting a fourth time in eight years or because they think this contest is only about personality, they would be as misguided as Americans were in 2000.

To see Stéphane Dion as Al Gore -- brainy, detached, aloof and uninspiring -- is to miss what is at stake here. No wonder that is how the Conservatives are painting the Liberal leader, whom they call "elitist" and "intellectual," just as Mr. Bush painted Mr. Gore.

At the same time, to see Mr. Harper as disciplined, effective and authoritarian is to miss the full measure of the man. Mr. Harper is all those things, but he is also the most ideological of prime ministers. He believes in a re-imagined, conservative Canada -- and craves the freedom to act.

His theology is devolution. With a majority, he will be unencumbered in reshaping the federation. Think this is far-fetched? Declaring Quebecers "a nation" and giving it powers in international affairs is only one step in creating a country of strong regions and a weaker centre.

Mr. Harper's distaste for Ottawa (rest assured, the national portrait gallery is going to another city) mirrors a larger antipathy to a vibrant national capital of a country led by a national government.

Don't expect him to discuss this. But it should surprise no one.

A secret agenda? It may be more instinct than design. The success of the Conservatives in power is how they have imitated the Liberals. They have increased spending, courted Quebec, cut taxes. At the same time, they have shrunk the surplus so they can cry poor and, eventually, cut social programs.

They know Canadians are a moderate people who dislike extremes as much as they like stability, which is why, historically, they have favoured majority over minority governments.

In 2006, voters were angry at the Liberals but unsure of the Conservatives. Shrewdly, they engineered a change of government without a change of direction.

They gave Mr. Harper a modest plurality and made the Liberals a robust opposition, with more seats than the Tories had had in opposition. They even gave the Conservatives seats in Quebec, too, conferring legitimacy.

Having seen the modus operandi of the saturnine Mr. Harper, Canadians remain hotly tepid about him, which is why he remains shy of a majority in the polls. Sure, Canadians think he is smart and competent. They also think he is as cold as a new razor blade, as Leonard Cohen sings, and a touch mean-spirited, too. Surely he is the most charmless prime minister since John Diefenbaker.

As Barack Obama is having trouble closing the deal with Americans, Mr. Harper is struggling to do the same with Canadians. They simply don't know if they can trust him with a majority, which is really the ballot question of 2008.

So, the Prime Minister is making nice now, showing his warm and cuddly side, while never daring to utter "majority," which worries people.

He will talk about leadership, which he says he has and Mr. Dion doesn't. He will call his opponent "a risk." He will call "the Green Shift" dangerous and costly.

And he will hope that blissful Canadians think this election is about nothing, that they will shrug, march unconsciously to the polls, and give him that elusive majority.

Andrew Cohen is a professor of journalism and international affairs at Carleton University.
E-mail
: andrewzcohen@yahoo.ca

I disagree with Cohen on one point. He says: “...they have shrunk the surplus so they can cry poor and, eventually, cut social programs.” Not true, I think; some, maybe even many social programmes actually make fair to good economic sense. Sometimes only a ‘public’ (government) programme can achieve the economies of scale that bring costs down. I do think that Harper wants to prevent the creation of new social programmes, to constrain the unchecked growth of existing social programmes and to actually shrink some, maybe many of the current programmes, but I doubt we will see any wholesale cuts if there is a Conservative majority.

But, Cohen is right when he says that Harper’s “theology is devolution. With a majority, he will be unencumbered in reshaping the federation.” And: “Bring it on!” I say.
 

 
But, Cohen is right when he says that Harper’s “theology is devolution. With a majority, he will be unencumbered in reshaping the federation.” And: “Bring it on!” I say.

And also work towards getting the EEE senate....
 
Andrew Cohen and a whole bunch of the MSM may not want the Liberals in, but they sure want Harper out....I have seen very little break for the Conservatives other than reporting that they are ahead....

I guess the media/goverment battle is still going on....
 
GAP said:
And also work towards getting the EEE senate....

Two Es: Elected and Effective are fairly easy - not even too much political capital needs to be spent. See my comments here. The third E (Equality) would require a Constitutional amendment and we spent most of the '80s agonizing over those.
 
GAP said:
Pooping puffin pulled from Tory ad
STEVEN CHASE AND JANE TABER Globe and Mail Update September 9, 2008 at 11:50 AM EDT
Article Link

The Conservatives have edited an Internet ad showing a bird pooping on Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion to remove the defecation scene.

Tories say the clip was the result of an overzealous web designer and Conservative Leader Stephen Harper apologized for the defecating puffin, calling it “tasteless and inapropriate.”

Mr. Harper said he didn't know about the web clip before it was posted Monday night. “Belittling images are not fair game,” Mr. Harper said.

The web ad at www.notaleader.ca still shows a puffin flying around Mr. Dion, but it no longer defecates on his shoulder. Instead, it now links through to a video of Michael Ignatieff saying: “And they put their excrement in one place, they hide their excrement. This seems to me to be a symbol of what our party should be.”
More on link

This may very well come back and bite the Conservative party on the buttocks, (as happened in 93 I believe).
 
I went out for coffee with my dad this afternoon wearing the Forces t-shirt my fiance brought me from his office one day. A local politican (PC) called me over to talk to me and ask if I was a member of the CF. When I told her that I had just joined and would be starting in January, she congratulated me on making a good career choice. She told me her mother was in the CF and had just returned from Afghanistan. Then she said, "The Conservatives are very pro-military."  Well, yes, I had gathered that. I guess that is why the military is very pro-Conservative these days. Judging from the poll results in this thread thus far, CF members appreciate this government's recognition and cooperation. I certainly know where my vote's going. ;)
 
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