The Arctic

[FSTO]

It wasn't in good repair. Its been fixed now. They are working on repairing the port after years of neglect as well. This year has a bunch of nickle and potash being shipped out of Churchill.

According to the owners the rail line is in its best condition in 30 years

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/port-of-churchill-upgrades-2025-1.7585649

 

[lenaitch]

Add theCF and 1st responders Maybe?

 

[GR66]

A Dutch ice-classed cargo ship carrying carbon blocks/anodes from China to Quebec has run aground in the Northwest Passage while transiting Franklin Straight. Two CCG vessels are attending and assessing the damage with an ROV.

‘Ice-class’ cargo ship runs aground in Northwest Passage

Newspaper of record for Nunavut, and the Nunavik territory of Quebec

nunatsiaq.com

Coast guard releases first image of stricken ship in Northwest Passage

The Canadian Coast Guard has released a first photo of the Thamesborg container ship aground in the Northwest Passage's Franklin Strait.

cabinradio.ca

I suspect we will see more incidents like this as use of the NWP increases in future years. With some of the passages potentially by nations that don't exactly have our best security interests in mind I think it makes sense that the new Continental Defence Corvettes call for an ice-strengthened hull to allow for an armed naval presence in the Arctic when required.

 

[YZT580]

A Dutch ice-classed cargo ship carrying carbon blocks/anodes from China to Quebec has run aground in the Northwest Passage while transiting Franklin Straight. Two CCG vessels are attending and assessing the damage with an ROV.

‘Ice-class’ cargo ship runs aground in Northwest Passage

Newspaper of record for Nunavut, and the Nunavik territory of Quebec

nunatsiaq.com

Coast guard releases first image of stricken ship in Northwest Passage

The Canadian Coast Guard has released a first photo of the Thamesborg container ship aground in the Northwest Passage's Franklin Strait.

cabinradio.ca

I suspect we will see more incidents like this as use of the NWP increases in future years. With some of the passages potentially by nations that don't exactly have our best security interests in mind I think it makes sense that the new Continental Defence Corvettes call for an ice-strengthened hull to allow for an armed naval presence in the Arctic when required.

why? Ships don't move very quickly and can be contained using airborne systems. Is the added cost of ice-strengthening really worth the result? We have ships already that can operate in the Arctic and no they are not warships but they are capable of dealing with most potential problems in the Arctic except possibly submarine and there are better ways to address that issue than with what one maybe two corvettes for the thousands of miles of waterway that is the Arctic and the 5 months a year (at most) that you could deploy them

 

[daftandbarmy]

A Dutch ice-classed cargo ship carrying carbon blocks/anodes from China to Quebec has run aground in the Northwest Passage while transiting Franklin Straight. Two CCG vessels are attending and assessing the damage with an ROV.

‘Ice-class’ cargo ship runs aground in Northwest Passage

Newspaper of record for Nunavut, and the Nunavik territory of Quebec

nunatsiaq.com

Coast guard releases first image of stricken ship in Northwest Passage

The Canadian Coast Guard has released a first photo of the Thamesborg container ship aground in the Northwest Passage's Franklin Strait.

cabinradio.ca

I suspect we will see more incidents like this as use of the NWP increases in future years. With some of the passages potentially by nations that don't exactly have our best security interests in mind I think it makes sense that the new Continental Defence Corvettes call for an ice-strengthened hull to allow for an armed naval presence in the Arctic when required.

A good example of why the strategic 'high ground' in the Arctic will likely be held by the country with, paradoxically, the most accurate navigational surveys of our arctic sea floor and waterways.

 

[Underway]

why? Ships don't move very quickly and can be contained using airborne systems. Is the added cost of ice-strengthening really worth the result? We have ships already that can operate in the Arctic and no they are not warships but they are capable of dealing with most potential problems in the Arctic except possibly submarine and there are better ways to address that issue than with what one maybe two corvettes for the thousands of miles of waterway that is the Arctic and the 5 months a year (at most) that you could deploy them

You can monitor from the air but you can't control from the air. Like infantry who hold ground, ships can "hold" waterspace (sea control). The air force can only do sea denial (first step towards sea control).

Ice strengthening in the case of CDC is not really a tactical or strategic mobility enabler. It's a navigational safety feature so you don't get damaged should the weather change and the ice moves faster than you do.

 

[Kirkhill]

why? Ships don't move very quickly and can be contained using airborne systems. Is the added cost of ice-strengthening really worth the result? We have ships already that can operate in the Arctic and no they are not warships but they are capable of dealing with most potential problems in the Arctic except possibly submarine and there are better ways to address that issue than with what one maybe two corvettes for the thousands of miles of waterway that is the Arctic and the 5 months a year (at most) that you could deploy them

How long does it take to get back from the Caribbean to Prince of Wales Island?

Having arctic capable ships that are not in the arctic kind of defeats the purpose.

We have 6 arctic ships. At least two should be on station in the arctic following the ice and the shipping. One in Baffin Bay and one in the Beaufort, guarding the gates.

Buy cheap warm water OPVs/Corvettes for the sunny climes you wish to sail.

What class do you need for the North Atlantic?

 

[YZT580]

You can monitor from the air but you can't control from the air. Like infantry who hold ground, ships can "hold" waterspace (sea control). The air force can only do sea denial (first step towards sea control).

Ice strengthening in the case of CDC is not really a tactical or strategic mobility enabler. It's a navigational safety feature so you don't get damaged should the weather change and the ice moves faster than you do.

nor can a corvette style ship provide sea control unless the opposition is either the same category at best or willfully permits itself to be controlled. It isn't likely that any nation that will challenge our sovereignty in the north will do so with a corvette. I accept your argument re: ice strengthening as a just in case it is needed option if you are going to send the corvettes north but if the AOP can't provide the necessary sea control, the AOP plus a submarine certainly can.

 

[Stoker]

How long does it take to get back from the Caribbean to Prince of Wales Island?

Having arctic capable ships that are not in the arctic kind of defeats the purpose.

We have 6 arctic ships. At least two should be on station in the arctic following the ice and the shipping. One in Baffin Bay and one in the Beaufort, guarding the gates.

Buy cheap warm water OPVs/Corvettes for the sunny climes you wish to sail.

What class do you need for the North Atlantic?

If they're not able to go the Arctic due to ice conditions or the season, I don't have an issue with them going south as ships tied up doesn't do anybody any good. After all, the ability to deploy south was built into them. I agree that we should have at least several in the Arctic for the max amount of time, however the RCN doesn't see it that way apparently. If they didn't pay off the Kingston Class prematurely we could still be sending ships on Caribe and freeing the AOPV's up for other missions.

 

[Kirkhill]

If they're not able to go the Arctic due to ice conditions or the season, I don't have an issue with them going south as ships tied up doesn't do anybody any good. After all, the ability to deploy south was built into them. I agree that we should have at least several in the Arctic for the max amount of time, however the RCN doesn't see it that way apparently. If they didn't pay off the Kingston Class prematurely we could still be sending ships on Caribe and freeing the AOPV's up for other missions.

At the back of my mind, for a number of years now, I have bothered by a comparison between the AOPS and two of the Coast Guard's fleet: the Leonard J. Cowley and the similar John P. Tully.

They are 70m craft.
They are ice-strengthened.
They displace about 2000 tonnes.
They have a max speed of 14 knots.
They have a range of 12000 nm and an endurance of 35 days.
They support light helicopter operations.
They have crews of 20.
They support a DFO law enforcement det.
Machine guns were fired across the bows of the Estai from the Cowley during Peckford's Turbot War.

Two points:

That description sounds a lot like the Continental Defence Corvette.
Vard is the designer of the Cowley.

Cowley seems to spend her life on the Grand Banks and the Labrador Sea.

....

Canada's Arctic is an extension of the Atlantic. Apparently even the Beaufort Sea ice from over by Tuk and the MacKenzie delta flows into the Atlantic.

Cowley sails out of St John's.
Year round.

6 AOPS sailing out of St John's, in place of the Cowley, could easily spend their entire career in the Northwest Atlantic, on the Grand Banks, the Labrador Sea, Davis Strait, Baffin Bay and Nares Strait - following the ice, tracking commercial shipping, supplying SAR and disaster assistance AND supporting the anti-submarine effort. They would effectively act as gate guards to the eastern entrance to the Northwest Passage.

And, following the ice, they could penetrate the Northwest Passage to Tuk and perhaps even overwinter there. Similarly they could follow the ice into Hudson Bay and Churchill, again overwintering possibly.

That would provide an enduring presence in the Arctic compatible with both Canadian needs and NORAD wants and the RCN could back burner the effort and focus their River Class / Continental Defence Efforts on ships designed for ice-free waters.

And by following Coast Guard manning practices they would only be using half the manpower.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Right now I would up the armament of the AOP's by replacing the two MG mounts with .50cal RWS. That would improve observation, protection and targeting ability all round at minimal costs.

Now that CCG is under DND. Add protected mounts, lockers and comm stations for .50cals on both sides. Start training crews how to use and care for them. Developing the ROE's and training the seniors officers in the shoot/no shoot will be the harder part.

Eventually you could also install one of these up forward

 

[Stoker]

Right now I would up the armament of the AOP's by replacing the two MG mounts with .50cal RWS. That would improve observation, protection and targeting ability all round at minimal costs.

Now that CCG is under DND. Add protected mounts, lockers and comm stations for .50cals on both sides. Start training crews how to use and care for them. Developing the ROE's and training the seniors officers in the shoot/no shoot will be the harder part.

Eventually you could also install one of these up forward

Not going to happen, the only CCG ships armed will be the ones doing fisheries. The GOC has been very clear that CCG will never be armed at all and the unions and rank and file as well as made that abundantly clear. Why even talk about it. I'm waiting for the blowback from the CCG personnel when they realize that having upgraded radars and sensors is going to make them legitimate targets.

 

[GR66]

Not going to happen, the only CCG ships armed will be the ones doing fisheries. The GOC has been very clear that CCG will never be armed at all and the unions and rank and file as well as made that abundantly clear. Why even talk about it. I'm waiting for the blowback from the CCG personnel when they realize that having upgraded radars and sensors is going to make them legitimate targets.

What makes you think that in a shooting war they wouldn't be targeted anyway?

 

[QV]

Not going to happen, the only CCG ships armed will be the ones doing fisheries. The GOC has been very clear that CCG will never be armed at all and the unions and rank and file as well as made that abundantly clear. Why even talk about it. I'm waiting for the blowback from the CCG personnel when they realize that having upgraded radars and sensors is going to make them legitimate targets.

Governments change. Legislate it, let those go that don't want a job, recruit those that do. Move on. It's time Canada pulls it's head out of its ass and looks after it's own interests better and that includes coastal security.

 

[Kirkhill]

Governments change. Legislate it, let those go that don't want a job, recruit those that do. Move on. It's time Canada pulls it's head out of its ass and looks after it's own interests better and that includes coastal security.

Better to work with the grain than against it. If you can get useful work out of people in their comfort zone why make enemies of them by forcing them to be uncomfortable?

Most of security is about sensing threats. Unless the number of threats is really high it is more important (IMHO) to have a wide variety of responses, even if there are only a small number of each, than to have mass quantities of a single response.

Better a full tool box than a bagful of hammers.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Not going to happen, the only CCG ships armed will be the ones doing fisheries. The GOC has been very clear that CCG will never be armed at all and the unions and rank and file as well as made that abundantly clear. Why even talk about it. I'm waiting for the blowback from the CCG personnel when they realize that having upgraded radars and sensors is going to make them legitimate targets.

Never assume absolutes when dealing with the government, I have seen several major upheavals in my time. Arming the ships with .50cals is relatively easy, changing mindsets will be harder. I don't see them having dedicated boarding parties for a long time, if ever. But making them more capable to support boarding parties is likley going to be the next step after upping their surveillance capability.

It wasn't long ago that CCG was under review to be sold off and replaced mostly with civilian contracted ships or a Crown owned corporation. That idea is dead for likley a decade or more. The trend now will be making the CCG more of an enforcement agency. The new multi-task vessels will be twice the size of the 1100's and expensive to run. Increasing their tasking list will be needed to justify the costs involved. Now would be a good time to design in hardpoints and cable routing for various light weapon systems, even if never used.

 

[Stoker]

What makes you think that in a shooting war they wouldn't be targeted anyway?

They very well might be and probably would be, but there are international conventions saying they are supposed to be neutral. All this talk to arming them and installing military grade radars and sensors would 100% ensure that.

 

[Stoker]

Governments change. Legislate it, let those go that don't want a job, recruit those that do. Move on. It's time Canada pulls it's head out of its ass and looks after it's own interests better and that includes coastal security.

Yes they could but their not and have been very clear about it. We have a hard enough time recruiting for the RCN and you think it will be that easy to recruit to replace CCG members.

 

[Kirkhill]

Not going to happen, the only CCG ships armed will be the ones doing fisheries. The GOC has been very clear that CCG will never be armed at all and the unions and rank and file as well as made that abundantly clear. Why even talk about it. I'm waiting for the blowback from the CCG personnel when they realize that having upgraded radars and sensors is going to make them legitimate targets.

It strikes me that this was the original rationale for the lightly armed AOPS in the first place. The government felt there was a need for machine guns to keep the civilian fleet in line. Our Turbot War, the Icelandic Cod Wars, the USCG dealing with armed poachers and drug runners all support that read.

But our lighthouse keepers, hydrographers and marine biologists were disinclined to make themselves targets. And the DFO officers were a minority constituency.

So the RCN was ordered to do a task they didn't want because, unlike the CCG they could be ordered.

 

[Stoker]

Never assume absolutes when dealing with the government, I have seen several major upheavals in my time. Arming the ships with .50cals is relatively easy, changing mindsets will be harder. I don't see them having dedicated boarding parties for a long time, if ever. But making them more capable to support boarding parties is likley going to be the next step after upping their surveillance capability.

It wasn't long ago that CCG was under review to be sold off and replaced mostly with civilian contracted ships or a Crown owned corporation. That idea is dead for likley a decade or more. The trend now will be making the CCG more of an enforcement agency. The new multi-task vessels will be twice the size of the 1100's and expensive to run. Increasing their tasking list will be needed to justify the costs involved. Now would be a good time to design in hardpoints and cable routing for various light weapon systems, even if never used.

Colin I agree that it is indeed easy to arm those ships and in my opinion they should be. Nevertheless the government has been very clear in their non intent of militarizing them and what that means. In my opinion way better to worry about the RCN than a turning a bunch of civilian sailors who whole history's been a non warfighting one into a para navy. If the men and women of the CCG want to be a armed forced then great, but they don't.