The Cdn Army does not need HMGs (From: CANSOF vs. Boko Haram)

[OldSolduer]

Although the .50 is rather heavy, it still is "man-portable".  The 25 mm is not.

Its 128 pounds, not including ammo.

In order to "man pack" it you need to break it down into its three groups: Barrel, receiver group and tripod.

Then the ammo - you need ammo bearers.

It's not easy, but we did it in 1979 in Charlie Coy 1 VP. Yes, the earth had cooled by then.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The British Army magically reintroduced the 50 cal in 1983, right after the Argies reminded them (the hard way) that it's a pretty good gun to have on your side.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Its 128 pounds, not including ammo.

In order to "man pack" it you need to break it down into its three groups: Barrel, receiver group and tripod.

Then the ammo - you need ammo bearers.

It's not easy, but we did it in 1979 in Charlie Coy 1 VP. Yes, the earth had cooled by then.

So, the last ice age is your fault.  Where's the global cooling now that we really need it?

 

[OldSolduer]

So, the last ice age is your fault.  Where's the global cooling now that we really need it?

-25 C here. Cooling is not an issue here. Keeping warm is.

 

[George Wallace]

Its 128 pounds, not including ammo.

In order to "man pack" it you need to break it down into its three groups: Barrel, receiver group and tripod.

Then the ammo - you need ammo bearers.

It's not easy, but we did it in 1979 in Charlie Coy 1 VP. Yes, the earth had cooled by then.

.....and it has a Tripod or AA mount that it can be mounted on.

Now.....Try breaking down a M245 25 mm Chaingun, take it out of the turret and hump it off to a trench somewhere................and find a ground mount of any sort to hold it.  (Realistically) Not going to happen.

 

[Good2Golf]

...Problem was, there were very few instructors alive/serving with the know how to teach people how to use them. 

Although not to make it too complicated, they essentially have the same TOETs as the C6 and C9, being open-bolt, blow-back designs made by FN.

 

[George Wallace]

Although not to make it too complicated, they essentially have the same TOETs as the C6 and C9, being open-bolt, blow-back designs made by FN.

The QCB's also did away with the Headspacing and Timing guages, making the checks much easier and safer.

 

[medicineman]

Although not to make it too complicated, they essentially have the same TOETs as the C6 and C9, being open-bolt, blow-back designs made by FN.

Still remember a few of them, having had to do famil shoots on them in the 90's...though, as I told my platoon warrant, "if gets to the point where I need to throw 60mm bombs down the tube or banging 50 cal rounds out, we need to be running really fast in the opposite direction"  :nod:

MM

 

[Jarnhamar]

I found C6s didn't have much vehicle stopping power when used with the RG31s, TLAVs or Bisons.  Taking .50s away really reduces the engagement bands of light (or non-LAV3) infantry.

They say the C16 is man portable but by that they mean take it off a vehicle and set it up.

 

[MilEME09]

I found C6s didn't have much vehicle stopping power when used with the RG31s, TLAVs or Bisons.  Taking .50s away really reduces the engagement bands of light (or non-LAV3) infantry.

They say the C16 is man portable but by that they mean take it off a vehicle and set it up.

Not to mention it's three pieces, and a pain to set up, when it first arrived at the weapon school no one was actually trained to assemble it, but we were curious so we pulled out the manual and set it up. That was a annoying few minutes. I'd say it's as heavy if not heavier then the .50 so have fun. It may have a 2.2km max effective range but i'd rather a cheaper .50, not a programmable 40mm high velocity grenade.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Although not to make it too complicated, they essentially have the same TOETs as the C6 and C9, being open-bolt, blow-back designs made by FN.

I think it's more in how they are used tactically, however we can just grab Pam's from the US, brits and other more enlightened users. I guess the HMG is just not "tac-cool" and would look out of place on dynamic,integrated,networked,multi-taskable, 21st Century solution powerpoints.

 

[Kirkhill]

Its 128 pounds, not including ammo.

In order to "man pack" it you need to break it down into its three groups: Barrel, receiver group and tripod.

Then the ammo - you need ammo bearers.

It's not easy, but we did it in 1979 in Charlie Coy 1 VP. Yes, the earth had cooled by then.

Funny you should mention ammo bearers.  I'm just working up an analysis (Go ahead Old Sweat - you can start laughing now  ;D) based on an Afghanistan study of the Americans in 2003 that I am applying to a Canadian context.

If I have my facts straight and you take the Yanks out of their desert gear and put them into their arctic gear, complete with personal protective equipment (including NBC gear), personal weapons, comms and navigation gear with rations and water for 72 hours then you have to ship 160 kg into the boonies.  Then you add heating and shelter (five man tent).  Then you can start thinking about support weapons.

The 160 kg represents 80 kg of soldier and 80 kg of stuff.  160 kg that has to be inserted and retrieved and moved around the frozen north on snowshoes and a pulk. 

Is it worth shipping in that extra 160 kg as an ammo bearer just to lift a small can of ammo or half a dozen 60mm mortar bombs?

Why not leave a couple of ammo bearers behind and ship in a Snowmobile or UTV and have one of the crews or even one of the CQ's guys tote an HMG with a few thousand rounds or a pair or 81s with 100 rounds?

 

[jollyjacktar]

When I was on OP CARIBBE in 2011 we stopped for fuel at Port of France in Martinique.  On the other side of the Jetty was one of the RFA (Royal Fleet Auxiliary) Tankers (for you land lubbers).  I honestly don't remember which one, but I talked my way on board for a tour.  I noted that on the Bridge Wings (balconies if you like on either side of the Bridge), they had a Dillon mounted each side for defensive use instead of a .50 cal.  They also had on the next deck down a 30mm Goal Keeper gun mounted each side for a bigger punch. 

Now personally, I like the idea of Dillons instead of .50's for taking on small boats and think that for the Navy at least it's a better way to go.  Would perhaps a Dillon not be a better option for the Army as a crew served weapon with the .50 being done away with or instead of?  Would volume not make up for weight when it comes to shredding someone or something that desperately needs attention?

 

[Fabius]

As much as I like the Dillon guns, I don’t think they are the right choice for the army.  They are more complex, require a power source, and require large amounts of ammo. 
The rate of fire for a M2HB is around 500 rounds/min, the Dillon M134D is 3000 rounds/min. That’s a lot of ammo to haul to support a fire plan, and you still need to haul the gun, the battery, the feed chute and a mount.

Vehicle mounted maybe but then we have the same issues as with our AGL.  Now for ships and aircraft good to go.

 

[Good2Golf]

...Now personally, I like the idea of Dillons instead of .50's for taking on small boats and think that for the Navy at least it's a better way to go.  Would perhaps a Dillon not be a better option for the Army as a crew served weapon with the .50 being done away with or instead of?  Would volume not make up for weight when it comes to shredding someone or something that desperately needs attention?

Griffons in AFG had both the .50 and the Dillon, and the section generally tried to cross-load the configuration between the two helicopters, so as to provide a Dillon and .50 to each side of the section.  Both nice weapons with benefits and some limitations to each.

G2G

 

[jollyjacktar]

Thanks, both of you, for the input.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Thanks, both of you, for the input.

I'm pretty sure that this is a great example of the optimal weapon mix for the dismounted rifle section

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR37Z5DzsTg

 

[my72jeep]

-25 C here. Cooling is not an issue here. Keeping warm is.

Was -37 @ 5am here in the land of the big Goose keeping warm was not attainable.

 

[daftandbarmy]

HMG gunners are good multi-taskers

 

[jollyjacktar]

I'm pretty sure that this is a great example of the optimal weapon mix for the dismounted rifle section

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR37Z5DzsTg

See, I'm not crazy after all.    ;D