The Cdn Army does not need HMGs (From: CANSOF vs. Boko Haram)

[cryco]

How much does that thing weigh? 

 

[winnipegoo7]

When I was on OP CARIBBE in 2011 we stopped for fuel at Port of France in Martinique.  On the other side of the Jetty was one of the RFA (Royal Fleet Auxiliary) Tankers (for you land lubbers).  I honestly don't remember which one, but I talked my way on board for a tour.  I noted that on the Bridge Wings (balconies if you like on either side of the Bridge), they had a Dillon mounted each side for defensive use instead of a .50 cal.  They also had on the next deck down a 30mm Goal Keeper gun mounted each side for a bigger punch. 

Now personally, I like the idea of Dillons instead of .50's for taking on small boats and think that for the Navy at least it's a better way to go.  Would perhaps a Dillon not be a better option for the Army as a crew served weapon with the .50 being done away with or instead of?  Would volume not make up for weight when it comes to shredding someone or something that desperately needs attention?

I know you're a HullTech and that this isn't your 'part ship', but I just wanted to correct a couple misconceptions:

1. I'm not aware of any RFA vessels that are fitted with the Goalkeeper CIWS. If it had a CIWS it was likely the Phalanx.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goalkeeper_CIWS

2. What you thought was the "30mm Goal Keeper" was likely the DS30M Mark 2 (Which is apparently a 30mm Bushmaster). It would be used much like we use the .50cals, except that since it is remote controlled, has electro-optics and is gyro stabalized it would be much more effective than our .50 cals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30mm_DS30M_Mark_2_Automated_Small_Calibre_Gun

3. The Mk44 Minigun (Is this the same gun as the Dillon?) did not replace the .50 cal, it fills the same role as the GPMG (our C-6), but we use the C-9 in this role.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Royal_Navy_weapon_systems

4. In simple terms the Mk44 would be used for close protection, much like we use the C-9 (ie. in a busy harbour where it is too dangerous to fire the .50cal.) The Mk44 would be next to useless against a small boat attack. 7.62mm is too small and the range is too short. The Brits use the DS30 to protect against 'swarming' small boats and fast attack craft. Apparently they thought that the .50 cal was too small.

Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I picked that minigun up empty with it's pack, you ain't walking much with it. According to the "Hurricane Butterfly" employees where the gun is currently located the actor was strapped to a stake in the ground as the torque kept knocking him over.

speaking of sleds and MG's

 

[jollyjacktar]

I know you're a HullTech and that this isn't your 'part ship', but I just wanted to correct a couple misconceptions:

1. I'm not aware of any RFA vessels that are fitted with the Goalkeeper CIWS. If it had a CIWS it was likely the Phalanx.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goalkeeper_CIWS

2. What you thought was the "30mm Goal Keeper" was likely the DS30M Mark 2 (Which is apparently a 30mm Bushmaster). It would be used much like we use the .50cals, except that since it is remote controlled, has electro-optics and is gyro stabalized it would be much more effective than our .50 cals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30mm_DS30M_Mark_2_Automated_Small_Calibre_Gun

3. The Mk44 Minigun (Is this the same gun as the Dillon?) did not replace the .50 cal, it fills the same role as the GPMG (our C-6), but we use the C-9 in this role.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Royal_Navy_weapon_systems

4. In simple terms the Mk44 would be used for close protection, much like we use the C-9 (ie. in a busy harbour where it is too dangerous to fire the .50cal.) The Mk44 would be next to useless against a small boat attack. 7.62mm is too small and the range is too short. The Brits use the DS30 to protect against 'swarming' small boats and fast attack craft. Apparently they thought that the .50 cal was too small.

Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.

It was RFA WAVE RULER, who was alongside of us that time.  They had two "DS30B 30 mm cannon" fitted on the deck below the Bridge Wings and the "Mk44"  on the Bridge Wings (which to my eyes look just like Dillons). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFA_Wave_Ruler_(A390)

The chap (a civilian crewmember) who was taking me around called the 30mm "the Goal Keeper"  I took him at his word on that as, you're quite correct, it's not my part ship.  Thanks for the correction.  I suppose the 7.62 isn't heavy enough, bullet wise, but I would have thought that the sheer volume would make up for that close in.  As Stalin said, "Quantity has a quality all its own".

 

[daftandbarmy]

I picked that minigun up empty with it's pack, you ain't walking much with it. According to the "Hurricane Butterfly" employees where the gun is currently located the actor was strapped to a stake in the ground as the torque kept knocking him over.

speaking of sleds and MG's

We used pulks like this in Norway, with a built in pintle mount for the GPMG. The 3 man crew could easily tow it, with all their ammo, on skis or by hand.

It allowed you to fire relatively accurately in most snow/bog/mud/swamp conditions. We provided them with snow stakes and light cables as well so you could stabilize it using a triangular set up.

 

[a_majoor]

CIS .50 only weighs 30kg, has dual feed, fires all current .50 ammunition and can fit in all existing M2 tripods.

Really, how hard is this stuff....

 

[Kirkhill]

CIS .50 only weighs 30kg, has dual feed, fires all current .50 ammunition and can fit in all existing M2 tripods.

Really, how hard is this stuff....

Good Lord Thucydides.

You make it sound as simple as looking up the Eaton's Catalogue or heading over to Ali Baba.  Don't you know there are stakeholders to consult? Consultants to employ? Clerks to justify?  Give your head a shake. 

Next thing you know you will have CO's with the authority and the budget to buy approved small arms directly from approved manufacturers and have them delivered by UPS.  The horror of it all.

 

[daftandbarmy]

CIS .50 only weighs 30kg, has dual feed, fires all current .50 ammunition and can fit in all existing M2 tripods.

Really, how hard is this stuff....

Cool. That's lighter than a Vickers, I think.

 

[medicineman]

I'm pretty sure that this is a great example of the optimal weapon mix for the dismounted rifle section

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR37Z5DzsTg

Of course the funniest thing in there is all the heavyish stuff going nuts, then Carl Weathers steps in with his MP5  :.

MM

 

[Jed]

Such a common theme in the CAF for the last two or three decades.  Goes right up to to the construction of facilities for troops or equipment.  (Memories of a tank hangar being constructed in Pet (1994), where the foundation being laid clearly indicated that the doors would not be large enough to allow a tank to pass through; and proven as such once hangar was built.  Someone, not an end user, found a way to cut costs by reducing the size of the doors.)

Oh how I enjoyed being the bearer of that message.  :

 

[Kirkhill]

C6 with SF and 6001000 Rounds for 10 minutes sustained = 31 41 kg  Ammo =    47% 60% of load
M2 with SF and 400 Rounds for 10 minutes sustained = 119 kg Ammo = 51% of load
C16 complete and 400 Rounds for 10 minutes sustained = 286 kg Ammo = 83% of load
M224 bipod and 200 Rounds for 10 minutes sustained = 358 kg Ammo = 94% of load
C3 complete and 150 Rounds for 10 minutes sustained = 663 kg Ammo = 95% of load
CG84 M4+FCS12 and 50 Rounds for 10 minutes sustained = 174 kg Ammo = 95% of load
AT4 (50 Rounds Complete) = 335 kg Ammo = 100% of load

The back breaker surely is not the weapon.  It is the ammo. If you can't hump the weapon then you can't hump the ammo.

And disposable systems like the AT4 are not the answer.

It is going to take a little more digging to find the relative cost of 10 minutes worth of ammo, as compared to the cost of the weapon.  But I would be willing to bet that when you add in the cost of shipping and maintaining a weapons tech to maintain the weapons then it more efficient all around just to treat the cost of small arms as a consummable and buy a new one when it breaks.  Have the CQ stock more barrels, receivers, tripods and baseplates than you have official PYs to man.

 

[Kirkhill]

Part 2  Cost (Open source replacement costs)

M240 Cost  $6600  10 min sustained (1000 rounds Ball)    $510  TICs per gun = 12
M2    Cost $14002  10 min sustained (400 rounds SLAP)  $3548  TICs per gun = 4
Mk19 Cost  $13758 10 min sustained (400 rounds HEDP)  $12000 TICs per gun = 1
M224 Cost $10658  10 min sustained (200 rounds M720)  $99,400 Guns per TIC = 10
M252 Cost $24717  10 min sustained (150 rounds M821)  $90,750 Guns per TIC = 4
CG84 Cost ~$20000 10 min sustained (50 Rounds HEDP)  $75,000 Guns per TIC = 4
AT4 Cost  $1481    10 min sustained (50 Rounds)          $74,050 "Guns" per TIC = 50

Cost of CanAm Outlander 6x6 Ammo Bearer MSRP -$13,649
Weight of CanAm Outlander 6x6 (Dry) - 515 kg
Payload - 363 kg
Towed Load - 750 kg

10 Minutes Sustained spreadsheet revised to include estimated costs

 

[jollyjacktar]

If the weight of the ammo is the critical issue, then maybe industry should look at taking another stab at caseless once more.  That is a savings on weight in lack of brass alone.

 

[McG]

If the weight of the ammo is the critical issue, then maybe industry should look at taking another stab at caseless once more.  That is a savings on weight in lack of brass alone.

That technology is not ready for the field.  There are other options including telescoped ammunition and alternate material for cases.

 

[OldSolduer]

That technology is not ready for the field.  There are other options including telescoped ammunition and alternate material for cases.

The careless ammo thing has been looked at for over 30 years now.  I think we'll be stuck with brass for a while.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Agreed.  But if they can get that issue, cased (pardon the pun), that might be the way forward for the PBI.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I suspect any successful caseless ammo will come in a disposable mag, rip the top off and load it in. so weight saved at the chamber end may not equate to the same weight saved at the logistical end. Plus you will have to factor the mag cost into it.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I suspect any successful caseless ammo will come in a disposable mag, rip the top off and load it in. so weight saved at the chamber end may not equate to the same weight saved at the logistical end. Plus you will have to factor the mag cost into it.

A plastic 30 round Magpul P-Mag will run you $20-ish

I've heard our current CF issue metal 30 round mags have a price tag of under $1 in the system, I'll have to confirm that.

 

[Shrek1985]

A plastic 30 round Magpul P-Mag will run you $20-ish

I've heard our current CF issue metal 30 round mags have a price tag of under $1 in the system, I'll have to confirm that.

$6.47 as of one of my troops loosing one and three hours and 40 candidates being unable to find it, this summer.

At heart the issue is that none of us; people who use the damn weapons and understand them make the call. It's made and approved by people who neither use, nor understand weapons, in an army where many of the people who use them don't understand them.

Case in point is the C16. Someone clearly thinks they can save money and look more modern while replacing both an HMG and a light mortar. No. does not work that way. And that fancy ammo? I been in 10 years and I can't believe that that expensive ammo will not be on the budget chopping block soonish. We're lucky to get enough ammo to zero, let along become proficient with our support weapons.

 

[LightFighter]

A plastic 30 round Magpul P-Mag will run you $20-ish

For a individual purchase, yea the price will be in that area. How ever, a large Government purchase I'm sure will have a lower price per mag.


It's a shame someone/some group decided the HMG is no longer needed by the Army.. maybe the next war that see's Canadian Soldiers deployed someone will decide to send them back to the battalions.