The Defence

[markppcli]

That's why.

because a fictional sadist used it to break the will of another fictional character ? Is that the point of PT, or training in general?

My point was more that there’s a lot of things we can do to improve physical fitness. Digging wouldn’t be in my list for efficient ways to do that. We go do that shit on exercise, and frankly on OP Lentus, more than enough.

 

[Kirkhill]

Can you provide me a single reason why this would be valuable pt ? It actually was a part of the BFT, for some reason.

Practical skill and upper body development for two.

 

[markppcli]

Practical skill and upper body development for two.

Upper body development ? That’s a meaningless statement in terms of fitness. Hard work does not equal efficient and effective fitness.

Practical skill - that’s why we teach people how do it on DP 1 and then again when we do exercises.

Ive had enough arguments with you to know that any bit of science or training knowledge I use you’ll hand wave away so I’m going to end our conversation on this. Suffice to say in reference to your suggestion

1. It’s not effective and efficient fitness training. To get anything out of digging you’d spend all day doing it.
2. It would require a dig trace and range control to check the site after
3. Digging holes and filling them in is a task so soul crushing we used it as punishment
4. We teach, and train this both in formal individual training, and in collective tactical exercises.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Digging a fortification, improving it and living in it for awhile will teach a lot of unseen skills and knowledge, including camouflaging, entrenching, how to patrol in and out of it. Using it as a training aid, have the next group assault it, occupy it and improve it. Eventually have the base take it apart. Under no circumstance, make the guys who built it, fill it in. I had some Vietnamese guys work for me, man those guys could out dig a Caucasian by a long stretch.

 

[Haligonian]

I’ve banged this drum for a while; we proved very very simple objectives for our dismounts to fight through. The objective of a combat team attack should be a trench system that the infantry has to fight through. This is beneficial for the soldiers learning this skills, small unit leaders directing the assault through, sub unit and unit commanders gaining an understanding of the time this takes, and the logistics chain having to account for grenades and ammunition in a realistic manner.

Yup. We've discussed this a number of times on here over the years. Probably a few pages back in this very thread. Even providing some very basic protective obstacles to posns, like wire beyond hand grenade range, would add some much needed realism and would likely change the caluculus substantially on where to dismount.

If your soldiers and junior leaders are patrolling, they aren’t digging in, if they’re digging in they aren’t patrolling.

Frankly I think the whole idea that we’d patrol while occupying the defensive, beyond OPs and clearances, to be a bit ridiculous. in order to properly do battle procedure you can’t be doing the full defensive routine; thus it’s a job for units in depth and hence the requirement to link up. Poorly planned, or rushed patrols with exhausted soldiers are just an expenditure of soldiers.

Don't think I disagree with that. During occupation the main effort will be establishing the posn, but as you allude to, we are still patrolling to provide security, it's just a question of who and how much. As a Comd if I'm forced into a hasty defensive I need to balance the requirement to provide myself with some level of security at the expense of some defensive preparations. This is a feature of defensive operations. We're always balancing this but I think the calculus becomes easier as the posn becomes more developed.

Ack your point on it being a job for units in depth, but there is nothing that dictates (other than the situation!) from what echelon of command, or where in the defensive framework, the depth element comes from. It could be a section out of an outpost forward of the Main Line of Resistance, or it could be a platoon out of a Bn's depth Coy.

As an example as a Bn Comd forced onto the defensive I might task my Coy's to clear areas forward of our posns and establish outposts (standing patrols) while their main bodies focus on defensive routine. Alternately, I could task my depth coy to take this task and leave my lead coy's to dig in.

Eight sections (two Coys up, two platoons up, two sections up) with crew served weapons, and the appropriate anti armour and fires capabilities/plans, forms the backbone of a Bn defence to retain terrain. They provide the "Main Line of Resistance (MLR)" That leaves the Bn upwards (depending on attrition) of 19 sections to secure the posn, reserves, and provide depth. Preventing the adversary from identifying our main positions and then pinpointing them to enable neutralizing fire is a critical task for the defender. More important than digging in elements beyond those in the MLR. Hence my emphasis on patrolling. Storr (if you're a fan) covers this well in Hall of Mirroirs and Battlegroup.

 

[markppcli]

Digging a fortification, improving it and living in it for awhile will teach a lot of unseen skills and knowledge, including camouflaging, entrenching, how to patrol in and out of it. Using it as a training aid, have the next group assault it, occupy it and improve it. Eventually have the base take it apart. Under no circumstance, make the guys who built it, fill it in. I had some Vietnamese guys work for me, man those guys could out dig a Caucasian by a long stretch.

In what world does anyone but the PTA remediate their defensive positions ? Who at base? Where is this labour pool to fill it in. Simply put it doesn’t exist. You dig in, move in, and after the ex go fill it in.

 

[daftandbarmy]

In what world does anyone but the PTA remediate their defensive positions ? Who at base? Where is this labour pool to fill it in. Simply put it doesn’t exist. You dig in, move in, and after the ex go fill it in.

The Reserves be like....

 

[KevinB]

Digging a fortification, improving it and living in it for awhile will teach a lot of unseen skills and knowledge, including camouflaging, entrenching, how to patrol in and out of it.

Not in a vacuum it won’t.
Generally in a defensive, troops in peacetime will do the absolute minimum. Because there is no major incentive, nor learning process to show the value in it.

The PRes may not fill their own trenches, but you know the Regular Army is then doing that for them.

 

[markppcli]

Not in a vacuum it won’t.
Generally in a defensive, troops in peacetime will do the absolute minimum. Because there is no major incentive, nor learning process to show the value in it.

The PRes may not fill their own trenches, but you know the Regular Army is then doing that for them.

Or falling into them at night a few months later

 

[childs56]

Buy one of these to make the trench

Pipeline Trenchers

Cut through some of the world's toughest landscapes.

www.vermeer.com

Buy one of these to fill the trench after

https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/equipment/dozers/medium-dozers/102647.html

You can up armor these if you need to. Imagine the russains going holy crap they have some nice equipment we can try and steal to bring back to the farm to dig graves errrrr I mean potatoes.

 

[markppcli]

Buy one of these to make the trench

Pipeline Trenchers

Cut through some of the world's toughest landscapes.

www.vermeer.com

Buy one of these to fill the trench after

https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/equipment/dozers/medium-dozers/102647.html

You can up armor these if you need to. Imagine the russains going holy crap they have some nice equipment we can try and steal to bring back to the farm to dig graves errrrr I mean potatoes.

You mean like these ? Russia has had PZM 3’s for decades. Kind of a waste. We use diggers here and there, but 70 percent of the work requires hand labour.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Not in a vacuum it won’t.
Generally in a defensive, troops in peacetime will do the absolute minimum. Because there is no major incentive, nor learning process to show the value in it.

The PRes may not fill their own trenches, but you know the Regular Army is then doing that for them.

I was on a summer concentration in Wainwright where the Regs said we had to leave the trenches untouched as we poor little Reservists - apparently - all had to 'rush back to our jobs and school'.

The Reg F was told to fill in our (considerable number of) trenches.

This was an insanely stupid order, of course, which I immediately disobeyed. Me and my company all grabbed picks and shovels and filled in the trenches we had been occupying, and then we left. Other companies did the same.

This bungling kind of leadership behaviour, by both Regs and Reserves, was one of the straws that broke the back of my interest in ever wanting to return to one of these kinds of exercises again, of course

 

[childs56]

You mean like these ? Russia has had PZM 3’s for decades. Kind of a waste. We use diggers here and there, but 70 percent of the work requires hand labour.

But them russaia can't steal nice equipment for themselves....

 

[childs56]

I was on a summer concentration in Wainwright where the Regs said we had to leave the trenches untouched as we poor little Reservists - apparently - all had to 'rush back to our jobs and school'.

The Reg F was told to fill in our (considerable number of) trenches.

This was an insanely stupid order, of course, which I immediately disobeyed. Me and my company all grabbed picks and shovels and filled in the trenches we had been occupying, and then we left. Other companies did the same.

This bungling kind of leadership behaviour, by both Regs and Reserves, was one of the straws that broke the back of my interest in ever wanting to return to one of these kinds of exercises again, of course

Except they may have wanted those trenches for training....don't ask how I know. One backhoe did some work for us and a few Regulars Force guys were not so happy when they went to take up their defensive and found the trenches filled in. Whoops should have told us they wanted to use them...

 

[KevinB]

You mean like these ? Russia has had PZM 3’s for decades. Kind of a waste. We use diggers here and there, but 70 percent of the work requires hand labour.

I’ll actually agree with @childs56 here (for once )
If you’re building an actual trench line, with connecting communications trenches and such, dedicated diggers make it so much easier.

Some terrain you just aren’t going to be able to dig by hand, and need mechanical tools (or explosives). As the pick and shovel don’t exactly work for bedrock, and in frozen soil the pick and shovel are just soul destroying.

 

[IRepoCans]

Some terrain you just aren’t going to be able to dig by hand, and need mechanical tools (or explosives). As the pick and shovel don’t exactly work for bedrock, and in frozen soil the pick and shovel are just soul destroying.

The Meaford experience.

 

[KevinB]

The Meaford experience.

TBH there are some worse areas - pretty much anywhere from Sudbury to ThunderBay.

 

[markppcli]

I’ll actually agree with @childs56 here (for once )
If you’re building an actual trench line, with connecting communications trenches and such, dedicated diggers make it so much easier.

Some terrain you just aren’t going to be able to dig by hand, and need mechanical tools (or explosives). As the pick and shovel don’t exactly work for bedrock, and in frozen soil the pick and shovel are just soul destroying.

nothing that can be done with the scoop on a badger.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

In what world does anyone but the PTA remediate their defensive positions ? Who at base? Where is this labour pool to fill it in. Simply put it doesn’t exist. You dig in, move in, and after the ex go fill it in.

Use a couple of backhoes to fill it back in and they can be hired locally.

 

[markppcli]

Use a couple of backhoes to fill it back in and they can be hired locally.

Backhoes can pull out riveting and pickets? Given that range control has to approve of any remediation, I can only imagine the over time hours any contractors with backhoes would game. If they can even get the backhoes to the defensives.