The Evacuation of Canadians from Lebanon Thread

[Neill McKay]

Odd and I thought I paid taxes to the Government to be a citizen of Canada???

Well boy's there you have it no need to pay your taxes but you can still reap all the benefit's of being a citizen and none of the burden.

Not quite.  The people living in Lebanon have in fact reaped almost no Canadian government services -- just a mediocre (but well-timed) boat ride to Cyprus.

You pay taxes for the roads you drive on every day, and the firefighters who will come in minutes if your house catches fire.

 

[FredDaHead]

Not quite.  The people living in Lebanon have in fact reaped almost no Canadian government services -- just a mediocre (but well-timed) boat ride to Cyprus.

You pay taxes for the roads you drive on every day, and the firefighters who will come in minutes if your house catches fire.

So your point is basically that we pay for all the services we get, right? Then the Lebanese people who have Canadian passports should pay for the boat ride out of their hellhole country they so adore.

However, once they come here and want to use our roads, our hospitals, our busses/trains/subways, why shouldn't they be forced to pay taxes? They'll be in Canada for quite some time, and will take full advantage of all the services we provide, no?

 

[Trinity]

Hey true enough..  maybe they don't need to pay anything while they're away

Welcome back to Canada.  We have this new tax called the GST.  Hope you enjoy it.

Oh btw..  please ensure you fill out your Revenue Canada forms this year.

 

[FastEddy]

(I'll probably just be a citizen in jail though.. but that's OK.. they need ministry in jail too)

And did you know we give Special Discounts and Free Upgrades to Religious Groups and Members.

Like from five to ten, at no extra charge !. Free Upgrades from Minimum to Maximum  Prisons.

Not only that we'll consolidate all your Misdemeanor's into one large Felony.

Our Motto is "We're here to Serve and so are you".

Cheers. LOL !

 

[GO!!!]

Not quite.  The people living in Lebanon have in fact reaped almost no Canadian government services -- just a mediocre (but well-timed) boat ride to Cyprus.

Well then! They should have no opposition to paying the evidently modest fee for a cruise ship and commercial airliners to be chartered into a war zone to pull them out.

You pay taxes for the roads you drive on every day, and the firefighters who will come in minutes if your house catches fire.

....and apparently to exfiltrate Canadian citizens of dubious loyalties from their countries of birth and residence - or was that someone else that paid for the evacuation?

Here, I'll answer that, "NO, my taxes paid for that"

 

[enfield]

Was the cost of this evacuation large enough to even justify any controversy over the cost per person? In the grand scheme of government spending (and waste) I can't see the cost of this evacuation being all that significant. We gave a free ride to a bunch of people - so what? We gave free rides to Americans, Aussies, Ukrainians, and just about anyone with a foreign passport - should we track down them for money?

The world is full of 'global citizens' with multiple an doverlapping residences, nationalities and citizenships. A number of Canadians died in the WTC on 9/11 - since they had apparently chosen to live and work in the US, many probably for most of their lives, were they any less Canadian?

Frankly, if a number of Lebanese-Canadians chose not to live in Canada (which is easy) and to make a go in post-war Lebanon (which is challenging) I applaud them and hope they return after this conflict to help rebuild. 

 

[Centurian1985]

I would be very interested in how many thousand Lebanese have been hanging onto a Canadian passport but havent been to Canada for several years or who havent paid their taxes! 

 

[GAP]

I think the controversy should be more around what this precedent created.

Does this mean that everytime something happens, war, hurricanes, etc. we must foot the bill to get Canadians out?

 

[HItorMiss]

Neil you realize that Firefighters are often a Provincial or county expense that's why you pay tax to them. Second It was not just one boat ride, it was a boat ride and aircraft chattered at great expense mind you, that if I do the math right (which I likely have not) for every 1 legitimate Canadian visiting family or traveling we moved 10 others that became citizens then buggered off to make a go back in the holy land of conflict abusing the statutes that the Canadian passport has achieved over the years.

I strongly protest this myself, not the Government for doing what it thought it had to (kudos to Harper for taking a stand in this conflict). What I protest is the fact that without a viable option we had to take everyone. A system should have been in place like the annual flat rate fee to keep your passport or you loose after X amount of years out side of Canada not paying into the coffers that may have to save you.

 

[GO!!!]

Like I've been saying all along, simply adjust the passport system to include a "taxes paid" stamp.

To get your stamp, you must return to Canada, pay your taxes, and have proof of it presented at a passport office. Passports are null and void without a current tax stamp. Non payment of taxes can result in the revoking of citizenship for persons born outside of Canada.

Citizenship has priviliges and responsibilities - this country is not a smorgasboard of benefits for the international community to pick and choose from.

 

[paracowboy]

if I may?

Citizenship has is supposed to have priviliges and responsibilities - this country is not should no longer be a smorgasboard of benefits for the international community to pick and choose from.

 

[FastEddy]

if I may?

Great Idea !, if only.

Now here's a couple of thoughts.

1.  Lets say a person has a passport of connivance, (Canadian + Lebanese), returns almost immediately to Lebanon after obtaining Canadian Citizenship. Resides there for ten or more years. Now needs very expensive Open Heart Surgery Approx. 200 K $. Flys to Canada for ($1,800 Rd. Trip), stays with relatives. Then returns to Lebanon. If thats not being Suckered, I don't know what is.

2. Now for the Vacationing Families who have shelled out Approx. $7,600 (4 Rd. Trip) and have been evacuated both by Sea and Air by Canada. Are they or could they claim from their Airlines the unused portions of their tickets. If not are the Airlines coughing up that money to the Government.

3. Sounds like I'm P....d off, your damn right. We've got money for that, but Quebec has just cancelled the Program of Taxi Service (to and from) for Senior Citizens requiring Dialysis Treatments downtown. They now have to pay for it out of their monthly $684.00 Old Age Pension Cheque.

Do I think they should be billed and that we need reform, Damn Straight. Does this apply to every Country, not necessarily, theres always exceptions to the rule but certainly those who Aid, Allow or Turn a Blind Eye to Terrorist Organizations.

 

[Missile Man]

All,

Yes, 90% of the evacuees from Beirut/Tyre are indeed CEPs (Canadian Entitled Persons) and the reason they wewre in Lebanon of all places when this broke out is becuase they were visiting their families in Southern Lebanon.  As it is a pretty long hike to Lebanon, when they visit they don't go for a couple of weeks, they visit for months. 

I suppose I should qualify my remarks quickly - I just got off the plane from OP LION and escorted approx 2400 CEPs from Beirut to Cyprus on the leased ferries.

Anyway, to put an end to the conjecture in this thread, most of the evacuees are indeed Canadian, and live most of the time in Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto, etc.  They happened to be over there visiting when this all flared up last month, and needed to get the hell out of there, so we went over and did the business.  Did some conveniently hitch a ride to Canada?  Sure, it happened.  But 90% of the CEPs were shell shocked, had witnessed family/friends die and were just glad to get out of Southern Lebanon.

 

[vonGarvin]

Thank you for your input, missile man.  Your operation (or the CF's role) went largely un noticed by the Canadian Media.  Well done on your part 

 

[FastEddy]

All,

Yes, 90% of the evacuees from Beirut/Tyre are indeed CEPs (Canadian Entitled Persons) and the reason they wewre in Lebanon of all places when this broke out is becuase they were visiting their families in Southern Lebanon.  As it is a pretty long hike to Lebanon, when they visit they don't go for a couple of weeks, they visit for months. 

I suppose I should qualify my remarks quickly - I just got off the plane from OP LION and escorted approx 2400 CEPs from Beirut to Cyprus on the leased ferries.

Anyway, to put an end to the conjecture in this thread, most of the evacuees are indeed Canadian, and live most of the time in Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto, etc.  They happened to be over there visiting when this all flared up last month, and needed to get the hell out of there, so we went over and did the business.  Did some conveniently hitch a ride to Canada?  Sure, it happened.  But 90% of the CEPs were shell shocked, had witnessed family/friends die and were just glad to get out of Southern Lebanon.

So by your Math, out of the 50,000 reported Canadians over there, 40,000 were just Vacationers.

If I'm stupid enough to park my a.. on the 38th parallel and the North Koreans start shooting at me or at the South.

Why should Canadian Tax Payers be Finace- ally responsible to get my Stupid A.. out of there ?. Therefore anyone who willingly and intentionally places them selves in harms way should at least be responsible for the financial cost of such an extraction. And please don't tell me Lebanon was not just such a hot spot waiting to happen with their sponsorship of Hezbollah.

Then such CEP's had to nerve to complain and condemn the very Government on World Wide T.V., who rescued them about the methods and conditions of same. And if they had known, it would have been better to have stayed with the bombs falling about them. That's Gratitude for Yeah.

As for any role the CF's played, that's what we do. Re:  "von Garvin", Media's reporting, he's spot on there. 

 

[Missile Man]

No, not 40,000 of 50,000 were vacationers.  I said 90% of evacuees.  We pulled 13,000 out.  Thus, 90% of 13,000.  Yes, there are an estimated 50,000 CEPs registered with the CDN embassy, but not all got out by DFAIT means (boat from Tyre/Beirut to Cyprus/Turkey). 

As for them complaining about our efforts, that is what you saw on tv here, and accounted for very few evacuees.  The 2% who were vocal and complaining were the only ones interviewed by the media there, as that was more newsworthy than quiet, grateful CEPs (98%).

Whether or not they are "entitled" to get out is not for me to decide.  If you had CDN citizenship, we got you out.  However, I will say that there were certainly different variants of "need" over there.  Some embarking in Beirut had luggage and Ray-Bans, while those from Tyre had no luggage.  One man had bloodied hands and no shoes.  He told us he was digging through rubble for 8 hours trying to free a neighbor's son.  That was need.

Fasteddy, you may be whistling a different tune if you get caught in a war zone, with the airport and roads bombed to hell, the only way out a CDN chartered ferry.  I don't imagine you would be manking about fiscal responsibility with bloodied hands, your family and neighbors all dead, and not a possession left.  Just a thought...

 

[FastEddy]

No, not 40,000 of 50,000 were vacationers.  I said 90% of evacuees.  We pulled 13,000 out.  Thus, 90% of 13,000.  Yes, there are an estimated 50,000 CEPs registered with the CDN embassy, but not all got out by DFAIT means (boat from Tyre/Beirut to Cyprus/Turkey). 

As for them complaining about our efforts, that is what you saw on tv here, and accounted for very few evacuees.  The 2% who were vocal and complaining were the only ones interviewed by the media there, as that was more newsworthy than quiet, grateful CEPs (98%).

Whether or not they are "entitled" to get out is not for me to decide.  If you had CDN citizenship, we got you out.  However, I will say that there were certainly different variants of "need" over there.  Some embarking in Beirut had luggage and Ray-Bans, while those from Tyre had no luggage.  One man had bloodied hands and no shoes.  He told us he was digging through rubble for 8 hours trying to free a neighbor's son.  That was need.

Fasteddy, you may be whistling a different tune if you get caught in a war zone, with the airport and roads bombed to hell, the only way out a CDN chartered ferry.  I don't imagine you would be manking about fiscal responsibility with bloodied hands, your family and neighbors all dead, and not a possession left.  Just a thought...

Love the way you work the percentages and the Dead neighbors, no shoes, bloodied hands, nice touch.

I never mentioned that the Canadian Government shouldn't evacuate its Citizens from and in situations like this, but that Vacationing or Cdn. Passport holders who deliberately visit or place them selves in dangerous or harms way, should also suffer the cost and not the Canadian Taxpayer.

And Buddy, if I were ever to be caught in a war zone, its only because my Country sent me there. And here's a thought for you, How many Korean Canadians do you know who Vacation in North Korea !.

 

[Missile Man]

Wow, fasteddy, DFAIT and DND should have consulted army forums for the answer to this crisis, you have solved it ion one post!  According to you solution; we should have set up a debit machine at the brow of each cruise ship (if insufficient funds were indicated, the evacuee would be turned away back into Tyre/Beirut); and, 2 - if people visit their families in a war zone, they are simply out of luck.  Though the Beirut airport was bombed out (can't fly out) and all of the roads were destroyed (can't drive anywhere) their only way out was by our charterred boats!  We could have actually made money on this humanitarian crisis!  And there we were, like suckers, spending millions of dollars and placing 150 DND personnel and hundreds of DFAIT pers in harm's way for 14 days in order to evacuate Canadian civillians from a war zone.  What were we thining?  Not only does your plan save all of the fuss and muss of money and danger, we could have actually MADE money on this swan!

Dude, did you actually preview your post before you posted it?  Brutal.

 

[paracowboy]

I never mentioned that the Canadian Government shouldn't evacuate its Citizens from and in situations like this, but that Vacationing or Cdn. Passport holders who deliberately visit or place them selves in dangerous or harms way, should also suffer the cost and not the Canadian Taxpayer.

And Buddy, if I were ever to be caught in a war zone, its only because my Country sent me there. And here's a thought for you, How many Korean Canadians do you know who Vacation in North Korea !.

so, folks can then only visit their families if they live in Switzerland? You're getting a tad rabid.

 

[enfield]

Three weeks ago Lebanon was not a war zone, and there was no indication it was about to become one. And certainly no indication that, in a matter of days, every transport link to Lebanon would be severed. If it was that dangerous there, 13,000 people - including children, pregnant women, and the elderly - simply would not have gone.

For areas that are considered dangerous DFAIT puts out travel advisories. I expect the situation is different for people who choose to ignore standing advisories and visit certain places, like the Congo or Afghanistan. In general, dangerous places don't have 13,000 vacationers.

I don't understand why some, such as Fast Eddy, are so upset about this. The expense of ferry travel and airfare for 13,000 is so minor in the grand scheme of government expenditure that it doesn't seem worth the debate. We did a good thing for people, the government fulfilled all posible obligations, end of story.

To echo von Garvin: good work Missile Man, we appreciate the effort you put in.